KLee55 Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 Help with use of the "InterCity"/"Inter-City" branding on coaches during the TOPS era (mark 1s and mark 2As in particular) would be appreciated. Was the branding used throughout the TOPS era? Was the branding ever used on mark 1 coaches? On which services would non branded coaches (mark 2As) have been used (or was it simply a question of availability)? Would BR have operated mixed rakes of branded and non branded coaches? Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) This thread will be of use: specifically posts 2, 3 and 5. To summarise, strictly speaking the airbraked Mk2 stock was authorised to be branded Inter-City from September 1970 but it took a while to achieve. Mk1 air braked stock was never branded but at least one vacuum braked Mk2 (later Mk2Z) received the branding in error. No vacuum braked stock should have carried the branding but, apart from the exception above, a number of Mk2a FK and BFK stock were converted to vacuum brakes from 1976 and they kept their branding as well. This covers the blue and grey livery. I'm pretty sure I don't remember Executive liveried Mk1 stock carrying InterCity either. Also of note is that the first branding was Inter City, then Inter-City (also used on early Executive repaints) and finally InterCity on most Executive liveried stock. Edited December 21, 2021 by Flood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 Many thanks. I'm modelling the late 70s to early/mid 80s period in 00 gauge. If I understand correctly, suitable rakes of blue grey coaches might be:- Mark 2Ds -Inter-City (Hornby) which could include non branded mark 1 BG and RMB (with ETH fitted loco)? Any mark 1s (secondary routes)? NOT mark 2As without branding? Can anyone recommend suitable models of earlier mark 2s (2A, B and C) for this period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 Yep, you've hit the nail on the head. Instead of the RMB you could use a Hornby RB (R4973). Bachmann have made Mk2F stock in blue and grey but it is all sold out now. As you've said, Mk1s for secondary routes but they were also used for Summer Saturday trains as well. To finish, all the Mk2A stock would have been branded by then. Bachmann make Mk2A stock. They do a re-run every now and then and you still find some on ebay: 39-341 Mk2A FK with Inter City branding 39-361 Mk2A TSO with Inter City branding 39-381 Mk2A BSO with Inter City branding 39-401 Mk2A BFK with Inter City branding References 39-340, 39-360 and 39-380 were Mk2A stock without branding. 39-330, 39-350, 39-370 and 39-400 were Mk2 vacuum braked stock (Bachmann have never had a re-run of the vacuum braked Mk2 coaches). 39-351 and 39-371 were also made as branded vacuum braked Mk2 stock. Mk2B stock was announced by Accurascale in August https://accurascale.co.uk/collections/mark-2-coaches Lima also made Mk2B and Mk2F stock in the 1980s and 1990s without flush windows and about 3.5mm too short. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 Many thanks, very helpful 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Further on this, does anyone know when the branding change from Inter City to Inter-City (with hyphen) took place? Would both have been seen regularly in around 1983? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 (edited) In "British Rail Mark 2 Coaches: The Design That Launched InterCity" there's a photo of a new build Mk2D coach in February 1971 which has Inter-City on the side. I think the change happened very quickly and probably all branded stock had Inter-City by the early '80s if not before. Edited December 22, 2021 by Flood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 I found a photo of a Mk.2C TSO in the October 1970 issue of Modern Railways which did not have Inter-City markings, but the Mk.2Ds shown in the September 1971 issue all have them. I have not seen 'Inter City' though; the hyphen was always there until they altered it to 'InterCity' for the 'Executive' livery in 1983. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Most of the branded Bachmann mark 2As in blue grey referred to earlier in this thread don't seem to have the hyphen in the branding. However, I can't find any reference to an official "Inter City" ( two words, no hyphen) branding. Can anyone clarify? Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 (edited) From the BR Corporate Identity manual. And as applied to Mk.3 coaches before the '125' was added. All show hyphens. Seems Bachmann have made an error there. Edited December 23, 2021 by BernardTPM 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Many thanks. What's the likelihood of minor variations/errors in the application of branding/logos by BR paint shops? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 I'm sure I've seen one photo showing a Mk2A without the hyphen but probably only one! It may have been an early style, as I thought, or it may have just been an incorrect batch. Or the hyphen had fallen off! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLee55 Posted December 24, 2021 Author Share Posted December 24, 2021 Many thanks. Just wondering whether it was Bachmann's error or that of BR! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 24, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2021 7 hours ago, KLee55 said: Many thanks. Just wondering whether it was Bachmann's error or that of BR! 7 hours ago, KLee55 said: Many thanks. Just wondering whether it was Bachmann's error or that of BR! Could easily be both! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 The hyphen was in the Inter-City name from before they applied it to coaching stock and all the model transfers I've ever seen for blue/grey livery have have it (MTK, SMS, PC Models/HMRS transfers, Replica, FMR/Fox, Railtec) so I'd say the error was on Bachmann's part. Their Mk2Fs are correctly hyphenated. This photo shows an early example of the branding (no TOPS code on the end), complete with hyphenated 'Inter-City' marking. A couple of others: Mk.2A FK, March 1974 ex-LMS Sleeper, June 1973 though someone slipped up with the spacing on this coach. Still has a hyphen, albeit with a gap after it. Model that and watch people questioning it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted December 24, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 24, 2021 36 minutes ago, BernardTPM said: The hyphen was in the Inter-City name from before they applied it to coaching stock and all the model transfers I've ever seen for blue/grey livery have have it (MTK, SMS, PC Models/HMRS transfers, Replica, FMR/Fox, Railtec) so I'd say the error was on Bachmann's part. Their Mk2Fs are correctly hyphenated. This photo shows an early example of the branding (no TOPS code on the end), complete with hyphenated 'Inter-City' marking. A couple of others: Mk.2A FK, March 1974 ex-LMS Sleeper, June 1973 though someone slipped up with the spacing on this coach. Still has a hyphen, albeit with a gap after it. Model that and watch people questioning it! What circuit were the LMS sleeping cars used on in the early 70's? Euston-FW? Euston-Inverness? (I went on a family holiday to Scotland by sleeper from Euston to Inverness in 1973, could that have been an LMS sleeper? I've got photos & cine of the holiday, but none showing the sleeping cars. I was too young to remember at the time!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 12 hours ago, Flood said: I'm sure I've seen one photo showing a Mk2A without the hyphen but probably only one! It may have been an early style, as I thought, or it may have just been an incorrect batch. Or the hyphen had fallen off! Mk2a SO E5311 is pictured in the Mk2 coaches book in blue/grey with Inter City, photo dated 1981 and the paintwork looks a little tatty. Mk2s outshopped prior to September 1970 originally had no branding. whereas later vehicles in blue/grey had Inter-City from new. I guess there's more scope for variation when applying branding to those vehicles built without it. Executive livery vehicles seem to have had InterCity as standard but some were Inter-City. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 The air-conditioned Mk.2Ds seem to have been the first to have the Inter-City branding from new in 1971, but it seems to have spread to the earlier Mk.2A-C types quite widely around 1973-4, coincidentally about the same time that the majority of locomotives received TOPS numbers. A lot of the lettering and numbering use by then was cut out vinyl so it is possible bits could have come off in later years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 (edited) On 23/12/2021 at 15:28, KLee55 said: Many thanks. What's the likelihood of minor variations/errors in the application of branding/logos by BR paint shops? I came across at least one image( on Flickr) where the Intercity was at the wrong end, the coach number was clearly readable too. I also think there may have been at least one Intercity/ScotRail hybrid, Off to search. Edited December 24, 2021 by w124bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 I their final years as cascaded stock, Mk2a/b/c coaches lost the Inter-City branding - sometimes in connection with getting Network SouthEast flashes prior to a full repaint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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