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Dapol Class 21/29

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7 minutes ago, Signaller69 said:

 

Some time ago when discussing the Hornby 29, BernardTPM pointed me to a Wikipedia photo of D6103 in 1959 at Harringay which shows the original grilles: 

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_21

On a train composed of LNER postal coaches. It also has LT trip cock gear fitted, which I haven't noticed on this batch before.

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11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

D6121 is in its pre 1964 condition, before it swapped cabs with D6122 following an accident.

 

D6122 had windscreen wipers at the bottom and (D6122- onwards) no cab vents, unlike D6100-21.

Post 1964 D6122 was rebuilt as a 29, and D6121 became stuff of legend in Barry with both numbers showing through.

 

So which loco was parked out the back of Hither Green shed circa 1967/1968 ?

Edited by bingley hall

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2 hours ago, bingley hall said:

 

So which loco was parked out the back of Hither Green shed circa 1967/1968 ?

 As an enthusiast the number you see is the number youve spotted.

At Hither Green history records you saw D6122.

 

It depends how to collect numbers, a rolling entity grouped together, or the identities recorded of those parts. Ive actually encouraged my little one to record numbers stamped on connecting rods of steam locos to give here better understanding of how a loco is built from parts, as well as more numbers to collect.. shes not going to see 700 WDs but she might see all the MN navies.. many of them on 35029. 

 

At Barry you could argue both D6121 and D6122.

 

Heres one end

D6121? at Barry

 

Heres the other

D6122 at Barry

 

There must be a lot of D6122 around, as it arrived in Barry whole, and as you can see has been stripped considerably, inside and out.

 

In the 1980’s it was common to see loads of class 25 cabs hanging around the works, and many class 25’s had different numbers overpainted on the sides from when swapped about. Some 47’s had this too.. 47522 went through a series of prangs and went through a few cabs. 47555 seems to have legends of being in 3 places at the same time. I once had a class 31 cabside number, the real thing was still working in service.

 

cabs are the point where the interface usually meets blunt end trauma in an accident, the point where weather meets the train at speed and the part that is internally most exposed to humans (dirty feet, rainwater, bashed to tools etc)  and so is the most exposed part of the locomotive and usually traps water too.

 

Spotting those today with modern painting by preservationists is much harder, once rubbed down its gone, unlike the stampings on steam locomotives, so that  whole cab part swapping history is lost, but I’m no doubts the practice of swapping cabs started with swapping footplate cab wrappers on steam locos and those too could probably tell a story.

Edited by adb968008
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10 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

 

Some time ago when discussing the Hornby 29, BernardTPM pointed me to a Wikipedia photo of D6103 in 1959 at Harringay which shows the original grilles: 

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_21

So is the difference just one vertical bar in the middle of the large grill or am I missing more differences. If it’s just the vertical bar, then it should be an easy plasticard conversion.

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46 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

So is the difference just one vertical bar in the middle of the large grill or am I missing more differences. If it’s just the vertical bar, then it should be an easy plasticard conversion.

The pilot batch had a two part louver grille. The production batch had a one part mesh grille. It does seem the earlier locos had their radiator intake grille revised before departing north of Hadrian's Wall.

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23 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Ooh I don't know; I didn't get my books out either when I made that comment!  But I seem to think the GN ones were low numbered so I'm sure you're right.  Thanks for letting me know; it'll save me making a mess with transfers ....

 

Hi Steve

 

With the discovery of the photo of D6103 at Hornsey with the revised radiator grille intake, it does look like all you need to do is renumber one for Finsbury Square. :locomotive:

 

Mind you do you have the siding space for a NBL type 2 and a Baby Deltic to sit there waiting for a fitter to come along and declare they need towing to Stratford for repair? :tomato:

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1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Steve

 

With the discovery of the photo of D6103 at Hornsey with the revised radiator grille intake, it does look like all you need to do is renumber one for Finsbury Square. :locomotive:

 

Mind you do you have the siding space for a NBL type 2 and a Baby Deltic to sit there waiting for a fitter to come along and declare they need towing to Stratford for repair? :tomato:

 

Thank you Clive!  Yes I expect one will be coming.  I wasn't going to buy one as I don't remember them on the ER; the only one I saw was the one in Barry scrapyard, but they've teased us with this model for so long I expect I will get one after all!  There's just room for an N2 to couple on the front if necessary.

 

Interesting to see that picture; I do have suitable transfers ready!

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9 minutes ago, 31A said:

...There's just room for an N2 to couple on the front if necessary.

Or couple an L1 on the front, and then the N2 or an N7 to rescue the pair of them? How nice to have options among the old faithful stalwarts on the GN inner sub lines. Did I ever think we might have RTR OO for the entire traction fleet at the KX suburban services transition?

 

Something that does intrude in the photos is the extreme prismatic effect of the glazing. It's very much inferior to that on the existing class 22. Since the NBL cabs of 21/29 and 22 were nominally identical in general form, it is odd that Dapol appear to have gone backwards here. (I realise these are samples to illustrate the decoration scheme and may not reflect the items that go on sale, but it doesn't exactly sell the model...) Anybody regularly in communication with Dapol care to raise this, if it hasn't been flagged up already?

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44 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Something that does intrude in the photos is the extreme prismatic effect of the glazing. It's very much inferior to that on the existing class 22. Since the NBL cabs of 21/29 and 22 were nominally identical in general form, it is odd that Dapol appear to have gone backwards here. 

Yet the Class 21/29 appears to have a 5 pole motor with twin flywheels, while (according to RoS) the Class 22 has a coreless motor.

What the Lord Dapol giveth, the Lord Dapol taketh away?

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28 minutes ago, truffy said:

Yet the Class 21/29 appears to have a 5 pole motor with twin flywheels, while (according to RoS) the Class 22 has a coreless motor. 

What the Lord Dapol giveth, the Lord Dapol taketh away? 

 

Not sure where Rails got that idea, the Dapol catalog says nothing about the 22 having a coreless motor and generally speaking Dapol don't really do coreless motors.

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1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Something that does intrude in the photos is the extreme prismatic effect of the glazing.  Anybody regularly in communication with Dapol care to raise this, if it hasn't been flagged up already?

I mentioned this a couple of pages back, and sent a comment to Dapol, which is displayed on the comments (Martyn W) of their page: https://www.Dapol.co.uk/OO-Gauge-Class-21 29. Doesn't appear to have made any difference unfortunately.

 

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57 minutes ago, Kaput said:

 

Not sure where Rails got that idea, the Dapol catalog says nothing about the 22 having a coreless motor and generally speaking Dapol don't really do coreless motors.

I did check the most recently updated thread on the 22, and there was no clarification on the motor, even from DapolDave: 

But AY's review does give the spec as including a skew wound motor: 

 

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Istr reading elsewhere that manufacturers only use Coreless motors where space is very restricted, such as small tank locos (especially where space for DCC equipment is a consideration), also on grounds of cost and issues with feedback DC controllers. 

 

Could it be the Dapol 'Supercreep' motor, as used in their 'N' scale class 22, is Coreless? I'm not familiar with it, but if so, it might explain the confusion around what is fitted in the 'OO' version?

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1 hour ago, Signaller69 said:

Istr reading elsewhere that manufacturers only use Coreless motors where space is very restricted, such as small tank locos (especially where space for DCC equipment is a consideration), also on grounds of cost and issues with feedback DC controllers. 

 

Could it be the Dapol 'Supercreep' motor, as used in their 'N' scale class 22, is Coreless? I'm not familiar with it, but if so, it might explain the confusion around what is fitted in the 'OO' version?


The super-creep motor is not coreless.

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7 hours ago, Signaller69 said:

Istr reading elsewhere that manufacturers only use Coreless motors where space is very restricted, such as small tank locos (especially where space for DCC equipment is a consideration), also on grounds of cost and issues with feedback DC controllers. 

 

Could it be the Dapol 'Supercreep' motor, as used in their 'N' scale class 22, is Coreless? I'm not familiar with it, but if so, it might explain the confusion around what is fitted in the 'OO' version?

I can understand coreless motors in N gauge, but I can't think of anything in OO that would require one. Even the Hornby Peckett manages just fine with a 5 pole motor. Yet a certain ex-manufacturer decided a motor the size of a raisin was acceptable in a class 71....

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Probably worth noting that some retailers have (at least previously) quoted the OO Class 68 as having a coreless motor when it most definately doesn't so I'd take retailer specs with a pinch of salt when they don't match the manufacturer's own specs.

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Same images here:

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/Class-21-29-Decorated-Samples-Have-Arrived

 

I have posted a comment there asking if they could provide pictures of individual locomotives, and better exposed/better lit picture so the bogie and underframe details are clear.  I also asked if the glazing was the final product, given the prismatic appearance.  Comment is subject to moderation, so lets see if it appears!

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On ‎04‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 18:43, truffy said:

... 5 pole motor with twin flywheels..

Words that confidently speak of 'the right stuff'.

On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 12:46, MGR Hooper! said:

 ...super-creep motor...

Words that suggest 'urrgh, now I want to wash my hands'.

On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 18:34, 5944 said:

I can understand coreless motors in N gauge, but I can't think of anything in OO that would require one...

Consider Rapido's implementations of coreless motors in two extremely compact/awkward models; Stirling single for the NRM, and the J70 for Model Rail.

 

Never thinking a  RTR OO Stirling single would come along, I have doodled many a time with thoughts of making a loco drive model, and it is a pig in so many ways to provide a fully concealed yet tractively competent loco drive mechanism. While I would always prefer an iron core motor for model railway application, if a coreless motor was what Rapido needed to produce the very capable mechanism of the single, then that was the right choice.

 

I don't have the J70 (yet) but read much in its favour.

 

So for 'very special cases', acceptable in my opinion. But when there's a vast volume inside as in full width bodied D&E RTR OO traction, a chunky iron core motor of similar well proven design to the Mashima or Canon 1833 please.

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I didn't realise the Single was coreless! But both the Single & the J70 seem happy on my homebuilt PWM controller from the '70s. I wasn't going to get the J70 because of the motor, having already got a very old K's version, and a Connoisseur etched kit as well. I managed to put a Mitsumi motor in that with a High Level gearbox, along with full interior detail as supplied, so it is possible.

 

Stewart

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On 06/08/2019 at 14:54, 26power said:

Same images here:

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/Class-21-29-Decorated-Samples-Have-Arrived

 

I have posted a comment there asking if they could provide pictures of individual locomotives, and better exposed/better lit picture so the bogie and underframe details are clear.  I also asked if the glazing was the final product, given the prismatic appearance.  Comment is subject to moderation, so lets see if it appears!

Unfortunately my comment/query has never been published in the “comments” on the page I linked to.  I do though see that there is also a message board with a thread on these, so will try the same comment on that.

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On 04/08/2019 at 15:40, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Steve

 

With the discovery of the photo of D6103 at Hornsey with the revised radiator grille intake, it does look like all you need to do is renumber one for Finsbury Square. :locomotive:

 

Mind you do you have the siding space for a NBL type 2 and a Baby Deltic to sit there waiting for a fitter to come along and declare they need towing to Stratford for repair? 

D6100-6109 all had the grills rebuilt during modifications back in Glasgow within the first 12 months of service. They barely turned a wheel until they were substantially modified. 

 

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So Dapol have at last delivered their class 50's some 7 years & 2 months after they were first announced, what do you think will be their next classic diesel in N Gauge & how long until they will arrive? I'm hoping for the class 21/29

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7 hours ago, WesternKing said:

So Dapol have at last delivered their class 50's some 7 years & 2 months after they were first announced, what do you think will be their next classic diesel in N Gauge & how long until they will arrive? I'm hoping for the class 21/29


Maybe a topic for another thread? I sniff a wishlist coming along....

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Guest JiLo
14 hours ago, WesternKing said:

So Dapol have at last delivered their class 50's some 7 years & 2 months after they were first announced, what do you think will be their next classic diesel in N Gauge & how long until they will arrive? I'm hoping for the class 21/29

RevolutioN put out the feelers for an N 21/29, there wasnt enough interest to progress, sadly

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