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Dapol Class 21/29

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10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Both cabs swapped...

 

I’ve just shown you both cabs off 25192.. yet it went on another 8 years, so highly likely there’s at least 4 cabs out there with 25192 on. I once saw a 31 in Manchester Victoria, then went home that night to look at the same number on the cab side I had in my shed.

 

Think of it from a welders point of view, you’ve got to remove to cab doors and fill the void, then cut and shut a headcode panel... are you going to do it standing on a plank across two buffers, with a drivers desk hidden behind the plate fully connected and potential to burn something behind what your about to cut...weighing the best part of your body weight.

 

or standing on the workshop floor removed cab in front of you and with all those internals behind it safely away able to work from both sides.

 

Now your part of a production line with a target and a knacker in front of you... remove those cab, work on them, remove the cabs of the incoming, refit the first already done, then start work on the others for the next loco... you’ve just saved days off that job.


i would look at railphotoprints site of 21’s.. many cabside numbers show evidence of partially modifying a digit on the numbers... brighter/darker digits, misaligned digits etc.

 

take 6132 for instance..

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h11A0378F#h1ddc29b3

 

This has been Railway practice for nearly 2 centuries, why would it not exclusively apply to these two ?

 

if nothing else from a modelling perspective, you can renumber a 21 by only removing 1 digit and leaving it mismatched in placement, font and colour density making it a junior modellers dream to renumber.

I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm well aware of BR works practices and I have many books in the collection showing class 25 cabs and others severed from scrappers ready for  reuse. But all NBL built diesels used aluminium extensively in their construction. The cabs were fabricated from aluminum with heavy use of castings to save costs, therefore corrosion damage warranting cab replacement should not have been an issue, unlike steel cabbed loco's like class 25's whose cabs were salvaged and stored for fast repairs. I know BR bought a few extra cabs from the manufacturer in London just in case of collision damage because their fabrication was pretty specialist with them being aluminium with all the custom castings. If the cabs were swapped due to accident damage its highly unlikely D6122 would have been subsequently repaired given the fact that many of the class were already in store including some other damaged ones. There must be an accident report to corroborate the accident theory if they were swapped due to a loco sustaining damage at both ends?

 

I cannot see why BR would go through the trouble of swapping both cabs on a loco for whatever reason then repair the donor on a class which was unreliable and half in store already. Surely they would have dragged one of the stored ones out of Kittybrewster or wherever to cannibalise it, not cannibalise and then repair a loco which was still in pretty good nick and probably still a runner. My theory is the loco's completely swapped identities for reasons unknown other than accident damage or cab replacement. 

 

 

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i think your still missing the point... D6121 was converted from a class 21 to a class 29...

that included removing discs, removing the cab nose doors, weld sealing & plating, cutting a horizontal hole to accomodate a riveted in Headcode box. Further it including relocating the wipers, and modifying the horn grills, it wasnt just a repaint, Probably also some cab internals...the cab was substantially modified.. doing all that standing on a wooden platform standing on too buffers is cumbersome, slow and dangerous... doing it with a spare cab on the shop floor in advance and swapping it is much easier..but as you say spare cabs not being as common as the class 25.. you take from the christmas tree.. long term non-runner D6122 as your source.


similarly there was no reason to suspect that 21s didnt have a long future ahead of them in 1964.. they were being converted to class 29’s. Painting over a number as an elaborate scam would fall apart as soon as it reached St Rollox shed.. the power unit hours, the locos mileage would mismatch.. indeed anything subject to exam would be off right down to tyre thickness..any inservice failure could easily read the power unit number and the balloon would go up... then even a depot clerk could read the pu number, worksplate and QED St Rollox would be had for falsifying reports.

 

Something occured, but i’m not convinced it was a 4965 incident, the circumstances were different, 4965 was unlikely to ever go anywhere than Swindon, and 4965 was due to be scrapped soon anyway. And the part most susceptible to any investigation was its boiler..not its frames and it was a good boiler that precipitated it, not a bad one. D6121 left St Rollox and went to Inverurie straight after. Reports show D6122 in both works on the same day.. indeed 3 places (as it was parts & whole) in Inverurie.  The scam theory requires both works to be complicit, centres around a component (the cab) not the most important.. its electricals.

 

Is there any record of which class 21’s were rebuilt at St Rollox, I understand not many, above D6122 however is only 7.. of which we are debating 1.. D6123 was done at Colchester, so if none of the other 5 were at St Rollox .. then to me that would close it down.
 

something happened, I grant that, without evidence its unknown, but I prefer to go path of least resistance & good intentions before believing in UFOs, its a debate which I am sure benefits interest in sales of Dapols D6121.. if they were to do D6122 in the future I’m certain that would do ok too.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i think your still missing the point... D6121 was converted from a class 21 to a class 29...

that included removing discs, removing the cab nose doors, weld sealing & plating, cutting a horizontal hole to accomodate a riveted in Headcode box. Further it including relocating the wipers, and modifying the horn grills, it wasnt just a repaint, Probably also some cab internals...the cab was substantially modified.. doing all that standing on a wooden platform standing on too buffers is cumbersome, slow and dangerous... doing it with a spare cab on the shop floor in advance and swapping it is much easier..but as you say spare cabs not being as common as the class 25.. you take from the christmas tree.. long term non-runner D6122 as your source.


similarly there was no reason to suspect that 21s didnt have a long future ahead of them in 1964.. they were being converted to class 29’s. Painting over a number as an elaborate scam would fall apart as soon as it reached St Rollox shed.. the power unit hours, the locos mileage would mismatch.. indeed anything subject to exam would be off right down to tyre thickness..any inservice failure could easily read the power unit number and the balloon would go up... then even a depot clerk could read the pu number, worksplate and QED St Rollox would be had for falsifying reports.

 

Something occured, but i’m not convinced it was a 4965 incident, the circumstances were different, 4965 was unlikely to ever go anywhere than Swindon, and 4965 was due to be scrapped soon anyway. And the part most susceptible to any investigation was its boiler..not its frames and it was a good boiler that precipitated it, not a bad one. D6121 left St Rollox and went to Inverurie straight after. Reports show D6122 in both works on the same day.. indeed 3 places (as it was parts & whole) in Inverurie.  The scam theory requires both works to be complicit, centres around a component (the cab) not the most important.. its electricals.

 

Is there any record of which class 21’s were rebuilt at St Rollox, I understand not many, above D6122 however is only 7.. of which we are debating 1.. D6123 was done at Colchester, so if none of the other 5 were at St Rollox .. then to me that would close it down.
 

something happened, I grant that, without evidence its unknown, but I prefer to go path of least resistance & good intentions before believing in UFOs, its a debate which I am sure benefits interest in sales of Dapols D6121.. if they were to do D6122 in the future I’m certain that would do ok too.

 

 

 

What is a 4965 incident? 

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In my view there is no evidence come to light anywhere that any Class 21/9 had a cab change, 6127 had been out of service years, there was two cabs there that could have been re-used, also I believe 6125 never ran again after serious cab damaged, again a spare cab available there but for some reason 6122 did get it,s cab repaired and one assumes that 6121/2 just swapped numbers.

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It is very common knowledge that 25s swapped cabs with indecent frequency, but that does NOT prove the same was true for 21s or any other class for that matter, did 20s swap cabs, or 37s, 40, 47s etc?

 

I think D6121/D6122 did something similar to D5005/D5025-

https://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html

Edited by royaloak
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1 hour ago, royaloak said:

It is very common knowledge that 25s swapped cabs with indecent frequency, but that does NOT prove the same was true for 21s or any other class for that matter, did 20s swap cabs, or 37s, 40, 47s etc?

 

I think D6121/D6122 did something similar to D5005/D5025-

https://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html


31’s definitely did. 47’s too. There used to be spare HST cabs and at least one 142 cab, Eurostar cabs at North Pole depot just recently.

 

Having a spare is routine.
 

Then you use it, repair the old one and it becomes the spare ready for the next one. Its standard railway practice.

Spare cabs were often spotted around railway workshops, removed from the old, awaiting refurb.
 

Theres even a common joke about 47555.

 

Ive done loads of works visits, never failed to find cabs around a workshop.. Ive found all kinds of oddities.. Swindon had some GWR castle tenders still in the early 1980’s and at least 1 western cab in 1983. Doncaster works actually sold a Deltic radiator only a few years ago.. offered via another forums website.

 

Flikr is your friend.. hundreds of examples on there, multitudes of reasons.., but boils down to a common thread.. re-use, in whole or in part.

 

Class 58 Cabs Doncaster Works 22.3.87

 

11/10/1981 - BREL Doncaster Works.


interestingly, one looks in rtc colours..

 

Cabs!


slightly used HST cab..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/16964565165/in/photolist-rR6QbR-9emJM7-byFzPN-2hgYjj3-DHtUbk-9ogKW3-tC1Auv-8ZxUj6-2hccTz4-bo7R2r-xGUJVb-7g9xuM-6SbnMU-mypUVA-brMGdw-yStdhr-Uwin4Q-nNEM2R-21JdKRY-zff6wr-ySzVYh-qLUHzz-wPXM6j-wBxrE5-QSfBfq-z4J5h4-tk7MZ3-tA5mEQ-EzcyPf-QVHwxR-7vj71C-G5rEYF-tkqeCc-4B8SfD-tzzkqQ-EjW2wT-5todf1-suWLz8-8CXqoh-9ogKpN-EhAXyy-TiuWyC-Sbq99p-FR1saY-QeEQ2G-2469qMH-WaFcNf-CkTsry-FQPxfE-rbBAVS

 

British Rail class 24, 25 & 45 diesel locomotive old cabs, Derby locomotive works. 1969

 

Cab of 1562 Crewe Works_18.9.71


 

i know none of them are a killer blow for a 21.. but then theres precious few pictures of 21’s in works being repaired at all.. most are late 1960’s awaiting scrapping... one assumes precious film in the early 1960’s in a works was saved for steam.

 

Edited by adb968008
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The 58 cabs were brand new and were never actually used, the 24, 31, 44, 45 and 47 cabs were all off scrappers, some may have been used but most wouldnt have been, HST cabs were exchanged due to serious accident damage, the last usable cab was used to repair 43160 which coincidentally was 43160s original cab.

 

I am not aware of 44s or 45s or any other classes routinely exchanging cabs during overhaul. 

 

The picture of the 24s shows a cab in the background with headcode box ears but no horns, I do like scrap pictures.

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Time to move on, even if I had 100% with video footage in hdmi i’m sure Some will still prefer to believe.

 

Theres very few pictures of inservice diesels inside a repair workshop in the early 1960’s... either diesels didn’t need repairs, or photographers used their precious film on the scrap steam locomotives outside, or the shiny new diesels outside.. add to that film  wasn’t best quality to use inside.

 

From the late 60’s / early 70’s into the 1980’s onwards there’s a growing increase of pictures... as steam had gone, as initially did lots of enthusiasts.

 

i’m sure In the future some will debate usage of provincial class 155’s, as there’s so few images, they were unreliable, and as they were converted to 153s early on, and photographers had other interests and assumed they would be around forever.

 

lack of pictures isn’t that things didn’t happen, just people weren’t interested in that aspect... that’s what leads to gaps, that conspiracy theories start to fill.

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008

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18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

that’s what leads to gaps, that conspiracy theories start to fill.

 

But if one is too concerned about avoiding a certain conclusion then objectivity can get lost! I've bought Anthony Sayers's excellent book on the North British class 21 and 29 in which every single member of the class is pictured and chronicled  and I recommend others to do the same. There is a great deal more evidence he brings to the D6121/2 discussion but I wont spoil it by divulging here. Suffice to say I agree that the evidence supports an identity swap beyond all reasonable doubt. As for a motivation to swap identities he points to the trial between a newly overhauled D6122 with its MAN engine and D6123 with new Paxman Ventura engine, that was interrupted by the accident to the former. Transferring the overhauled MAN engine to D6121 and renumbering it to D6122 had the benefit of allowing the trial to continue smoothly without confusion. My own observation is that it would also avoid NBL claiming the trial had been compromised - something that might be significant if the BTC tried to claim compensation from them, as I believe they once intended. Finally, the disposal of one of the pair all the way to Hither Green for a week's re-railing exercise and the associated trip to Barry scrap yard would also need explanation if it were not simply to prevent the swap being discovered.

The cab swap theory is also unlikely because it would have needed all four cabs to be swapped in order to get both ends matching with regards to the eyebrow vents.

Edited by Broadway Clive
added sentence re 4 cabs swap
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Thanks i’m a believer if theres evidence.

 

 

if its true then its true, notwithstanding I firmly believe cab swaps during works repairs is fairly normal, even if not in this case... ive seen first hand numerous locos with shadows of multiple numbers under coats of BR Blue in my time, I just wished I’d cared enough and had film to waste photographing them... not just locos but units too.. the most recent example I can think of was the removal and reuse of the nose (not the cab) of 91108 earlier this year...it too is a christmas tree right now.
53A94508-1B0E-40CE-8DAE-CDE74D27FCF9.jpeg.68644fd243a1e09625b8dc6e569717e2.jpeg
 

i havent seen the book, so will add it to my list.

Edited by adb968008
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On 27/12/2019 at 13:35, Broadway Clive said:

 

But if one is too concerned about avoiding a certain conclusion then objectivity can get lost! I've bought Anthony Sayers's excellent book on the North British class 21 and 29 in which every single member of the class is pictured and chronicled  and I recommend others to do the same. There is a great deal more evidence he brings to the D6121/2 discussion but I wont spoil it by divulging here. Suffice to say I agree that the evidence supports an identity swap beyond all reasonable doubt. As for a motivation to swap identities he points to the trial between a newly overhauled D6122 with its MAN engine and D6123 with new Paxman Ventura engine, that was interrupted by the accident to the former. Transferring the overhauled MAN engine to D6121 and renumbering it to D6122 had the benefit of allowing the trial to continue smoothly without confusion. My own observation is that it would also avoid NBL claiming the trial had been compromised - something that might be significant if the BTC tried to claim compensation from them, as I believe they once intended. Finally, the disposal of one of the pair all the way to Hither Green for a week's re-railing exercise and the associated trip to Barry scrap yard would also need explanation if it were not simply to prevent the swap being discovered.

The cab swap theory is also unlikely because it would have needed all four cabs to be swapped in order to get both ends matching with regards to the eyebrow vents.

Just what I have been eluding to. Swapping four cabs would be highly unlikely and uneconomic to say the least. I think they had already got authorisation for certain loco's to be converted, something came up which would have jeopardised the program so they pulled a fast one. Why else send D6122 all the way to Hither Green (to test new re-railing equipment) then to Barry rather than cut it a St Rollox or sell it to McWillians at Snettisham? Surely a redundant diesel hydraulic from Old Oak which is close to Hither Green could have been used for these exercises?

 

I do have the book you refer to but I've not had the time to read it in any great detail as of yet, so I haven't read all the 'evidence'.

 

Edited by Baby Deltic

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3 hours ago, Baby Deltic said:

Just what I have been eluding to. Swapping four cabs would be highly unlikely and uneconomic to say the least. I think they had already got authorisation for certain loco's to be converted, something came up which would have jeopardised the program so they pulled a fast one. Why else send D6122 all the way to Hither Green (to test new re-railing equipment) then to Barry rather than cut it a St Rollox or sell it to McWillians at Snettisham? Surely a redundant diesel hydraulic from Old Oak which is close to Hither Green could have been used for these exercises?

 

I do have the book you refer to but I've not had the time to read it in any great detail as of yet, so I haven't read all the 'evidence'.

 

 

Ahh..

 

Now heres me thinking the class 21, having a Commonwealth style bar bogie design, and thus similar to SR EMUs was the reason it was selected to goto the SR, save them dropping off and picking up an in service EMU on and off the rails.

 

I didnt realise sending it to London was to hide it from NBLs creditors..in front of half of the UKs enthusiasts, beyond their control and to a scrapyard that wouldn't scrap it and wasnt compelled to... especially when D6121 was still live and kicking..

if they were really that careful, swapping builders plates would have job number 1..

 

I’m suddenly back into disbelief mode with this statement...

 

if you have something to hide... hide it.. thats why 40126 disappeared so quickly. Thats why murders hide bodies.. Its a human trait to cover it up, in your control..not parade it out of your control.
 

Youve yet to answer how they removed the doors, welded on a plate, cut a horizontal hole, modified a control and not risk a fire or damaging the cab electrical cables, as well as riveting in the headcode box...its not as if theres a even a cab nose they can go into... 

 

there is a clue here in this picture of a class 21 being built... the parts that are primer, to me look separately built and applied..

 

url link to wix site for d6332

f9cbdd_64811d3e6d2344f38631bbf6c510af97~

Source:https://northbritish6332.wixsite.com/class21class29loco

 

same website that owns a power unit, and wants to new build one, adds this line, which is at odds with your statement...

 

Quote

The NBL works photo shows the cabs were originally cast aluminium. Many were collision damaged and fortunately BR drew up a fabricated replacement design.

I wonder if that included headcode boxes by chance ?

Edited by adb968008
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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Ahh..

 

Now heres me thinking the class 21, having a Commonwealth style bar bogie design, and thus similar to SR EMUs was the reason it was selected to goto the SR, save them dropping off and picking up an in service EMU on and off the rails.

 

I didnt realise sending it to London was to hide it from NBLs creditors..in front of half of the UKs enthusiasts, beyond their control and to a scrapyard that wouldn't scrap it and wasnt compelled to... especially when D6121 was still live and kicking..

if they were really that careful, swapping builders plates would have job number 1..

 

I’m suddenly back into disbelief mode with this statement...

 

if you have something to hide... hide it.. thats why 40126 disappeared so quickly. Thats why murders hide bodies.. Its a human trait to cover it up, in your control..not parade it out of your control.
 

Youve yet to answer how they removed the doors, welded on a plate, cut a horizontal hole, modified a control and not risk a fire or damaging the cab electrical cables, as well as riveting in the headcode box...its not as if theres a even a cab nose they can go into... 

 

there is a clue here in this picture of a class 21 being built... the parts that are primer, to me look separately built and applied..

 

url link to wix site for d6332

f9cbdd_64811d3e6d2344f38631bbf6c510af97~

Source:https://northbritish6332.wixsite.com/class21class29loco

 

same website that owns a power unit, and wants to new build one, adds this line, which is at odds with your statement...

 

I wonder if that included headcode boxes by chance ?

 

The cabs were built separately in London and shipped up by road. The bodyside grilles and skirts around the bufferbeam were castings. Parts of the cab were cast and welded together. Some of the NBL drawings show the various castings such as the front window surrounds. I'm not sure whether the castings were made by NBL and shipped to London to the fabricators, as I would imagine a mixture of castings and sheet metal would have been used as required. BR would hove probably been forced to come up with some sort of fabricated cab design after NBL went bust in 1962. I'm aware of the Class 22 project. and have sen some of their drawings. They are currently creating CAD versions of the originals.

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IIRC D603 had a replacement cab fabricated from steel 

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5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

You've yet to answer how they removed the doors, welded on a plate, cut a horizontal hole, modified a control and not risk a fire or damaging the cab electrical cables, as well as riveting in the headcode box...its not as if theres a even a cab nose they can go into... 

 

 

 

As an engineer myself I can tell you how. Unbolt the doors and remove them, cut and fit a piece of aluminium plate over the aperture then either weld in by using TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) which fuse welds the aluminium with a filler rod or you could rivet or gas weld. Even if metal is cast it does not mean you cannot cut it, fill it, weld it or alter it. You can stick weld cast iron too. As far as fire is concerned they would have removed the wiring or any flammable materials near the welding area. The loco's were being rebuilt internally, not just having different engines fitted and that would have involved looking at everything including the wiring, especially  due in no small part to the fact that the diesel engine being fitted was of a higher rating than the MAN engine being replaced, and these loco's, and other D6100's had been known to have pyrotechnic tendencies. The locomotives kept their GEC controllers although I have seen evidence that class 29's were fitted with a white sign saying 'Notch Up Slowly' between the power handle and reversing lever, probably due to the higher power output of the Paxman engine.

 

 image.png.a8332a83a96657611a84521dd155ae58.png

 

I believe this is the power controller of D6124 after conversion to a class 29.

Edited by Baby Deltic
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15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Now heres me thinking the class 21, having a Commonwealth style bar bogie design, and thus similar to SR EMUs was the reason it was selected to goto the SR, save them dropping off and picking up an in service EMU on and off the rails.

 

But are you seriously saying the only out of service vehicle available to the SR with Commonwealth style bogies in October 1967 was this particular locomotive? That was patently not the case even when considering the other redundant class 21s! But your reasoning may well have substance as quite often with cover ups someone takes advantage of an opportunity that presents itself, and that is a more plausible explanation than pure chance as to why D6122 (aka D6121) became the only one to be disposed of outside of Scotland. In mid October 1967 the decision was taken to halt further modification expenditure on the class 21s and straight away this loco is away and into Barry scrapyard by the time the National Traction Plan is published in November 1967!  

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3 hours ago, Broadway Clive said:

 

But are you seriously saying the only out of service vehicle available to the SR with Commonwealth style bogies in October 1967 was this particular locomotive? That was patently not the case even when considering the other redundant class 21s! But your reasoning may well have substance as quite often with cover ups someone takes advantage of an opportunity that presents itself, and that is a more plausible explanation than pure chance as to why D6122 (aka D6121) became the only one to be disposed of outside of Scotland. In mid October 1967 the decision was taken to halt further modification expenditure on the class 21s and straight away this loco is away and into Barry scrapyard by the time the National Traction Plan is published in November 1967!  

The Commonwealth bogies fitted to the NBL diesel electrics were totally incompatible with any SR vehicle and were unique to the type. They were referred to as Commonwealth because they incorporated the 'Commonwealth' bogie design principle and outwardly it showed to an extent, just like on some other diesel classes. It should be noted that, although some SR EMU's were retrofitted with Commonwealth bogies, these were the standard ESC pattern coach bogies and not power bogies which were to the standard 'BR1' style SR power bogie pattern. This can be seen on units such as CEP's where the outer power bogies under the cabs are standard SR power bogies but the inner coach bogies were retrofitted from BR1 to standard Commonwealth. The latter high powered units based on the MK1 body used a more modern pattern power bogie and BR4 coach bogies (possibly BR5 in some circumstances?) The only EMU's to have Commonwealth power bogies that I know of were the class 309's and the power bogies, although from what I remember they were of a heavier design and would have differed from the non-powered Commonwealth bogies internally but fact is that the NBL bogies were totally different again. 

Edited by Baby Deltic
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1 hour ago, Baby Deltic said:

The Commonwealth bogies fitted to the NBL diesel electrics were totally incompatible with any SR vehicle and were unique to the type.

 

As the link between the class 21s and the Hither Green re-railing exercise offered by adb968008 has been discredited I searched for another. The great new book on the NBL type 2 classes 21 and 29 by Anthony  Sayer (fantastic piece of work, mate!)  has a photo of the event with the caption 'Lukas Demonstration'. It just so happens that this is a German company still producing re railing equipment and other hydraulic products today. So there is a potential link via NBL's German engineering associates to the Scottish Region authorities that could have enabled the latter to offer D6122 to that event in the South of England.

 

https://rerailing.lukas.com/

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1 hour ago, Broadway Clive said:

 

As the link between the class 21s and the Hither Green re-railing exercise offered by adb968008 has been discredited I searched for another. The great new book on the NBL type 2 classes 21 and 29 by Anthony  Sayer (fantastic piece of work, mate!)  has a photo of the event with the caption 'Lukas Demonstration'. It just so happens that this is a German company still producing re railing equipment and other hydraulic products today. So there is a potential link via NBL's German engineering associates to the Scottish Region authorities that could have enabled the latter to offer D6122 to that event in the South of England.

 

https://rerailing.lukas.com/

I've just had a look in Mr Sayer's book and finally read his notes on D6121/2 and his evidence is pretty compelling. Its obvious to me that the Scottish Region CME wasn't interested in dragging in working class 21 locomotives and converting them or swapping cabs. What the Scottish Region were after was as many working NBL Type 2's as possible because they had a Type 2 traction shortage and they deliberately dragged in the stored wrecks, rather than working locomotives as the BRB thought they were doing and completely stripped and rebuilt them until the BRB got wind of the escalating costs and, upon realising what they were up to, asked the ScR for an explanation. Many of these loco's had suffered fire damage, damage caused by long term storage outside and none of the wiring was standard, so rewiring was necessary. Some loco's were found to be totally unsuitable way into the work such as D6109 which had had all the bodywork mods done before they realised the engine bed-plate had been modified at some point so a Paxman engine couldn't be fitted. At least two were found to have collision damage to the frames necessitating a cab lift to repair it. The fact that it appears Inverurie works had to prove they were trained and competent in aluminium fabrication before BR would allow conversions to take place speaks volumes. 

 

Note the photo in the RCTS Diesel Dilemmas article (linked below) showing 'D6122' with a damaged cab at one end. Funnily the loco hasn't sprouted a pair of eyebrows yet! I know the same photo appears in Mr Sayer's book but this article is available for those without it:

 

https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/loco.htm?id=diesels/D6121

 

 

Edited by Baby Deltic
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I have thought for 9+ years that the cab swap theory was most plausible in absence if evidence.
I only learned of this book this week and obtained it today, it was only published a few weeks ago, so most ”experts”  only just got this book for Christmas.

 

However Its clear even at the first hours looking at this book that the conciseness and completeness off the collation of data is excellent, and thats hard to ignore.

 

I haven't yet found new proof, nor claims absolute evidence but the author is clearly in the ID swap camp, he has collated and structured the available data very well, I can only assume his research leads to his belief and looking at the initial content of that book, i’m understanding why.. this could be a definitive class 21/29 book.

 

I have to admit page 189 does it for me... This is that “in works” photo I have sought, showing 5 locos at different stages of conversion, indeed two next to each other show different stages of cab conversion, the cabs being just about the only thing left on the frames, I’m surprised the author hasnt picked up on this (maybe he has and ive not got there yet) as supporting evidence against a cab swap.
The author suggests it’s his own conjecture what happened to D6121/22 but I have to submit, based on that picture the argument is diminished. Was D6121 the best of a bad bunch, and so selected for D6122’s power unit and sent out ?

 

I will add one other question, the Colour Rail picture of the damaged cab at Perth in April 1964.. this picture of a nominally “in service” loco, where the roof panel retainer lugs above the power unit are fully exposed so clear you can see through the lugs themselves... has the roof access panel been opened and Is this unusual in this context ?

https://www.rcts.org.uk/popup.htm?img=D6122 April 1964 Perth 11Apr64&cl=diesels
this picture is the source of the date timeline of events that leads to the swap theory ?

 

I also note a number of the pictures on this site are in the book and usernames from rmweb are frequently quoted in the book too, as well as rcts and facebook users. I’m thinking, without knowing of this new book ive fell unarmed into an easy trap in this discussion, so forgive me if I retire from it and focus on the model.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

the roof panel retainer lugs above the power unit are fully exposed so clear you can see through the lugs themselves... has the roof access panel been opened and Is this unusual in this context ?

I don't know if they are always in this upright position, but there are certainly plenty of photos of locos in traffic with them like that - 6137 when it rescues the Jacobite, for example. 

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16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

I have thought for 9+ years that the cab swap theory was most plausible in absence if evidence.
I only learned of this book this week and obtained it today, it was only published a few weeks ago, so most ”experts”  only just got this book for Christmas.

 

However Its clear even at the first hours looking at this book that the conciseness and completeness off the collation of data is excellent, and thats hard to ignore.

 

I haven't yet found new proof, nor claims absolute evidence but the author is clearly in the ID swap camp, he has collated and structured the available data very well, I can only assume his research leads to his belief and looking at the initial content of that book, i’m understanding why.. this could be a definitive class 21/29 book.

 

I have to admit page 189 does it for me... This is that “in works” photo I have sought, showing 5 locos at different stages of conversion, indeed two next to each other show different stages of cab conversion, the cabs being just about the only thing left on the frames, I’m surprised the author hasnt picked up on this (maybe he has and ive not got there yet) as supporting evidence against a cab swap.
The author suggests it’s his own conjecture what happened to D6121/22 but I have to submit, based on that picture the argument is diminished. Was D6121 the best of a bad bunch, and so selected for D6122’s power unit and sent out ?

 

I will add one other question, the Colour Rail picture of the damaged cab at Perth in April 1964.. this picture of a nominally “in service” loco, where the roof panel retainer lugs above the power unit are fully exposed so clear you can see through the lugs themselves... has the roof access panel been opened and Is this unusual in this context ?

https://www.rcts.org.uk/popup.htm?img=D6122 April 1964 Perth 11Apr64&cl=diesels
this picture is the source of the date timeline of events that leads to the swap theory ?

 

I also note a number of the pictures on this site are in the book and usernames from rmweb are frequently quoted in the book too, as well as rcts and facebook users. I’m thinking, without knowing of this new book ive fell unarmed into an easy trap in this discussion, so forgive me if I retire from it and focus on the model.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No need to ask for forgiveness for doing modelling.  The cab swap theory is a good one and it’s something that BR have been known to do on both steam and diesel locomotives immemorial. Don’t mention frame swap theories cough cough (Princess Anne) ahem (City Of Glasgow) cough.

 

I think the ScR were looking to get as much mileage out of this conversion scheme as possible to drag in as many wrecks (D6100 -37) and rebuild them whilst still maintaining their working class 21 numbers. The photo in the book of the conversions in progress shows the extent they went to as you mention. They gained an extra ‘new’ Class 21 out of it too; D6109 when, miles into the conversion the suddenly found it ‘unsuitable’ and refitted a refurbished MAN engine (not that it lasted very long).
 

We might still all be wrong, who knows?

Edited by Baby Deltic

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