Petri Sallinen Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Many locomotives in Finland were British made in 1800 century. Here is the drawing of locomotive class C2 that Finnish State Railways used from the end of 1800 century. We had 16 locomotives of this series in Finland. Locomotives were made by UK company named Neilson & Co in 1869. I am just wondering was this type serial production loco of Neilson or was it made specially for Finnish State Railways. I am also interested in if there are any kits or models available in UK of this type. One prototype is nowadays situated in Finnish National Railway Museum. Petri Sallinen Helsinki, Finland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Neilson & Co became part of North British Locomotive Co. so their may be something in their records. This website would be a good starting point. Note North British Railway and North British Locomotive were two entirely separate companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Petri, I think you're getting two different locomotive types mixed up here. The preserved locomotive is C1 class leader no. 21, the first of a batch of ten supplied by Neilson (builders numbers 1427-1436) to the Riihimaki-St Petersburg Railway in 1869. These locomotives retained their running numbers (21-29) into VR ownership (the original no. 30 passed to Russia in 1918). The preserved locomotive was withdrawn from service in 1926. Your drawing is of the very similar C2 class, a development of the C1 with the same 0-6-0 wheel arrangement. This class numbered 18 examples, running nos. 31-43/48-52, but were built by Avonside Engineering (b/ns 760-772 of 1869 and 998-1002 of 1873/4). The C2 differered in having a sandbox (as shown in your diagram) ahead of the dome. To what extent these locomotives were standard products of those companies is difficult to determine. Neilson supplied a number of similar 1524mm gauge 0-6-0s to other railways in Russia around that time (and my apologies for noting that the Duchy of Finland was part of Russia then), but few photographs and drawings seem to exist. Obviously the wood-burning smoke stacks and wooden cab sides were an adaptation to Finnish conditions, but in other respects they were fairly typical of the British 0-6-0 of the period with inside cylinders and Stephenson link motion. These features reappeared on the very similar C4 class, built in Austria (Sigl, 1875) which suggests that the basic design had been adopted by the Finns by that time. I'm struggling to think of a close approximation in terms of British outline models (which of course are 1:76 rather than 1:87 scale). To my eyes it has similarities to the Great Eastern Y14 (LNER J15), albeit with a six-wheel tender of completely different design. On checking however, I see that the J15 had larger wheels (1500mm) and coupled wheelbase (4900mm). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petri Sallinen Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Eddie, you are exactly right. The headline in this drawing seems not to be right — the locomotive is possibly C1 made by Neilson, although the wheelbase looks like more C2 than C1. It might also be possibly that the person who has made this drawing in 1960´s has made some mistakes. You have very good knowledge of Finnish old steam locomotives — and our history too. I also thank you for your information of simililarities to some British locomotives. Yes, our scale in modelling is 1:87 instead of British 1:76, but in some cases the differences do not matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I started to compile records of locos exported to Europe from builder's lists a while back, but it's worth mentioning that there's a very good book "Suomen veturit osa. 1" published by Stenvalls in 1975 giving the locomotive history of the state railways (in German and Finnish). It's hard to find and usually expensive (the Railway Museum at Toijala wanted around 100 euros for a second hand copy in 2000). The book has illustrations (photographs) of both C1 and C2, from which I'd say the drawing is almost certainly of a C2, the sand box in front of the dome being diagnostic of this type when compared to the C1, and of course the running numbers fit with the class designation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petri Sallinen Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think I found the reason for this strange drawing. The drawing I enclose here has been published in many books during years and I suppose that the original drawing has originated in the beginning of 1900´s century (I remember that I have seen it in some book published in 1917). After dissecting it carefully I noticed that somebody has mixed up figures from two locomotives in the same drawing — the locomotive in the drawing is neither C1 nor C2. Many enthusiasts might have used this drawing source of information without taking information in photos, like the person who has made the drawing I sent here yesterday. It is funny — and very usefull — that this mistake showed up until I sent the drawing in the UK forum. I do not understand why anyone of Finnish enthusiasts (including me) have not noticed this strange things. Suomen veturit, osa 1 -book is very hard to find, but in the end of this year the new updated version will come out. In updated version some mistakes are corrected and there will be some new information. The brand new information will be the russian trophy locomotives that were used in Finland in 1940´s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 North British Locomotive records are held at the Glasgow University Archives. Not sure if the Neilson records are there. Hope this helps, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petri Sallinen Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Neilson supplied a number of similar 1524mm gauge 0-6-0s to other railways in Russia around that time (and my apologies for noting that the Duchy of Finland was part of Russia then), but few photographs and drawings seem to exist. Eddie, you mentioned that few photograps and drawings might be available of these style locomotives made by Neilson. I would be happy if you have information where to get these. Petri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have a friend, Pekka Sisskonen in Finland who may be helpful; maybe you know him already? He was one of the Lloylimakki group at one time (sorry if the spelling is wrong). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Eddie, you mentioned that few photograps and drawings might be available of these style locomotives made by Neilson. I would be happy if you have information where to get these. Petri I'm sorry, but there's a difference between "a few" meaning some and "few" meaning" hardly any. There are some stylised photographs and diagrams in the first volume of Rakov's work on Russian and Soviet Steam Locomotives (various editions, including a German translation) and photographs in the first volume of Russian Locomotives (De Pater & Page), but I haven't checked whether any of the Neilson locomotives are included in either. (I attach a list of the locomotives concerned, below). The North British/Neilson archives may hold something - it is likely that works photographs were taken of at least the principal designs, and that general arrangement drawings were prepared. Sadly a definitive history of North British and its constituents (Neilson, Sharp Stewart and Dübs) has yet to be written (for absence of doubt, I have a copy of Bradley's "Giants of Steam" which is a useful introduction). Book2.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petri Sallinen Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm sorry, but there's a difference between "a few" meaning some and "few" meaning" hardly any. Yes, you are absolutely right. I would be hauled over the coals for my blunder if my old English teacher would heard There are some stylised photographs and diagrams in the first volume of Rakov's work on Russian and Soviet Steam Locomotives (various editions, including a German translation) and photographs in the first volume of Russian Locomotives (De Pater & Page), but I haven't checked whether any of the Neilson locomotives are included in either. (I attach a list of the locomotives concerned, below). The North British/Neilson archives may hold something - it is likely that works photographs were taken of at least the principal designs, and that general arrangement drawings were prepared. Sadly a definitive history of North British and its constituents (Neilson, Sharp Stewart and Dübs) has yet to be written (for absence of doubt, I have a copy of Bradley's "Giants of Steam" which is a useful introduction). Eddie, I thank you for your information. When the updated version of Suomen veturit osa1 will come out, I let you know. Petri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petri Sallinen Posted December 4, 2017 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 Höyryveturit Valtionrautateillä — The Steam Locomotives of Finnish State Railways is now ready. About 500 pages information of all steams used in Finland. All texts are also in English. https://webshop.trafiikki.fi/the_steam_locomotives_of_the_finnish_state_railways https://www.adlibris.com/fi/kirja/hoyryveturit-valtionrautateilla---the-steam-locomotives-of-the-finnish-state-railways-9789529390663 Petri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I should have a copy on order - just that my supplier seems to have taken a break from e-mails! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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