Penlan Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Ok, I know I could probably look out a copy of The Wirral Railway by T H Maund to hopefully find the details ............. although copies are a bit thin on the ground in west Cornwall. But, as I'm only thinking of lettering one open wagon (similar to the E & W U Y Rly wagon I have - see the posting here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/818-ewyurly-wagon/page__p__5400__fromsearch__1?do=findComment&comment=5400), it's easier to ask on here....... According to John Gahan's book 'Steel Wheels to Deeside' there were around 50 mineral wagons and 3 Vans belonging to the Wirral Railway - there were up to a 100 goods vehicles all told. The Railway Year Book for 1917 gives the goods stock as follows:- 83 Open Wagons 3 Covered Vans 3 Rail & Timber Trucks 3 Goods Brake Vans 17 Service Vehicles (presumably these were the Loco Coal wagons and Gas Tank wagon ?) Anyway, any details would be most welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted March 29, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2011 I own a copy of Campbell Highet's book "The Wirral Railway" (Oakwood Press, 1961) he quotes on p.27: "... of freight rolling stock there was quite a variety. This was painted a light french grey, ironwork black, and the letters WR in white." There are no photos in this book showing freight wagons so no details on the layout and in what style they were lettered. I don't own Maund's book, but having now known that it exists, means I'm interested in buying a copy as I lived in New Brighton for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Although the Maund book is an excellent publication, it is not very forthcoming regarding the wagon stock. The livery is described as grey with black underframes and white lettering. There is only one view of a wagon, (and no drawings) taken in 1906, in which the grey is somewhere between mid and dark, and definitely not the light French grey that Campbell Highet and Ernest Carter quote (the latter dates this as 1896). Maund claims that the view is the only one showing a WR wagon, whilst in Geoffrey Williams' The Elegance of Edwardian Railways there is a photo which has portions of two WR brake vans in the background, and they appear to be even darker, almost black. Perhaps, like some other lines, such as the LBSCR, the goods stock grey gradually got darker as the cheapest sources of grey paint changed. (The LBSC went from a very pale lavender grey in Victorian times to a dark blue-grey by grouping) I seem to recall that Nigel Digby, rather surprisingly, covered this obscure line in one of his superb coloured livery articles in BRM several years ago. From memory, the open wagon he portrayed was depicted in a dark grey. I hope someone can identify which issue this appeared in, as it would help to track it down in one of the many boxes of magazines in the loft! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nick, Does the view of the wagon include any visible part of the WR, and thus what height is it. Are we talking typical MR of the Midland or just a couple of planks high and is it split either side of the centre door or say WR one side, number the other...... or even like the small G.W.R. from the 1800's. Hopefully, if I have nothing before, I may see a copy of the book at Trainwest in a couple of weeks time. I did wonder if the late J P Richards may have taken some notes of a Wirral wagon, but I don't recall seeing one in the line up of his (mainly LNWR) models in the NRM - there are some other obscure names though in the cases. Many thanks Nick for taking the time to reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The view shows the W at least. The open seems to be a large five to six and a half plank wagon. The lettering is similar to Midland, with a large letter, roughly 2 planks high, visible in the centre of the left hand third, with nothing on the door. Numbering not obvious. If the Nigel Digby article can be found it shows, I suspect, is interpretation of this single sighting. I wonder is there is a Wirral wagon in the Kenneth Wherret arcive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted March 30, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2011 The coloured drawings are in the BRM, July 2001 issue. Incidentally the photo taken in 1906 at Hoylake, was a postcard, which has appeared in a number of publications, shows a part view of a 5 or 6-plank open in the coal yard. It's lettered as split either side of the centre door with a large size "W" over the strapping (the R/H lettering and numbering aren't in the photo) The best and most complete reproduction of it appears in "Railway postcard scenes of Cheshire" by John Ryan and Basil Jeuda, published 1987 by Cheshire Libraries ISBN 0904532224 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Nick quote - Geoffrey Williams' The Elegance of Edwardian Railways there is a photo which has portions of two WR brake vans in the background, Ah, I have this book, and had a look at the photo, one photo of the Wirral and there's goods stock in it, not the seemingly mandatory 3/4 front view of a passenger train. I don't have the Railway Magazine for 1902 and 1904 where there are a couple of articles on the Wirral Rly. Re. BRM, I gave up keeping all my mag., the floors were beginning to sag I now buy one and pass on to others, they each buy a different one and pass around - I think they end up in the local doctors surgeries.... The only one I keep is MRJ. GC 4946, I shall try and locate that book, should be able to do something through the Libraries service - Stop, just bought a copy from David Newband on the internet £6 (That might be why the one on Ebay that finished yesterday didn't sell at £14.99 (from a Google search)). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted March 30, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2011 I've re-read my copy of "Railway postcard scenes of Cheshire" and I'm sure there's another photo featuring a Wirral Railway open wagon. The subject of the photo is 2-4-0T no.3 taken c1910 probably at Slopes Branch Junction. Immediately behind the loco on the left is an empty wagon that has 5 or 6 planks, but with high coal or coke raves. The W is about 2 1/2 planks tall, though the loco hides part of the letter, and because it's closer up than the example at Hoylake, you can see how large the W is in relation to the wagon and where it's painted in relation to the ironwork. The livery appears to be mid-grey with black ironwork. There is no other lettering or markings that would show it's a PO wagon, moreover, the W appears to be the same style as the one in the other photo taken at Hoylake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Not really helping regarding livery etc, here's a label to put on it when it's done! I think it was actually attached to PO wagon as the line Owner & No. of Wagon appears to read:- 10 / MB+T / 3000 I don't know what the 3000 signifies, the number of bricks, maybe? P46 of T.B.Maund's Wirral Railway book show 3 Moreton Brick and Tile company wagons in a train at New Brighton. P64 shows a Wirral wagon right on the edge of the photo; he describes the wagon colour as "dark grey with black underframe and also black strapping by the look of this view" Thre "R" of the "WR" is just visible but the number isn't. Slightly off topic, regarding the Wirral Railway book by T.B.Maund. There are quite a few errors in the captions to the photos; on P175, for instance, there is a photo described as "New Brighton looking west" when in fact it is West Kirby looking east. As he is a (relatively) local author the errors are quite irritating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 SWMBO wondered what all the typing's about, told her, apparently her Dad was born in the Wirral Rly area. I knew her Grandad on her mothers side was a Signalman on the Midland, but more facts are coming to light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 For the 0.02% on here who are interested in the Wirral Rly, here's another glimpse of a Wirral Rly wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2011 Slightly off topic, regarding the Wirral Railway book by T.B.Maund. There are quite a few errors in the captions to the photos; on P175, for instance, there is a photo described as "New Brighton looking west" when in fact it is West Kirby looking east. As he is a (relatively) local author the errors are quite irritating. Very local, Oxton village. He was offered assistance by someone who knows (I went to his house to discuss this and the Birkenhead book, the quality of both is quite poor unless you like locomotive histories of the 1880s or share issues of the 1840s, guess what ? he declined my offer, not obvious because the signalling and operation of both are covered in depth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted December 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2011 This attached photo looks like the best close-up shot of the "W" so far and the "tare" lettering. The challenge is now to find suitable photo(s) showing the "R" and the style of running number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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