Handbuilding turnouts, using gauges

[gordon s]

Hi Lee, I'm a bit pushed tonight but will happily get back to you tomorrow. I've just been through the same loops as your goodself and have standardised on 00-SF for my layout Eastwood Town. I am using copper clad pointwork and SMP flexi as plain track. I may be able to answer some of the concerns you have on handbuilt track.

 

I can fully understand your frustration having been there before...

[martin_wynne]

Hi Lee,

 

There is no reason to think of returning your flexi-track. Most builders of 00 finescale layouts use flexi-track, either Scaleway or C&L. Very few 00 modellers would think of hand building plain track. There's no doubt it produces the best looking track close-up, but it's just too much work except for a very small layout.

 

Have a read of this topic, and you can hardly fail to be encouraged : http://www.rmweb.co....od-town-update/

 

Gordon is using Scaleway flexible 00 track and handbuilt pointwork in 00-SF standard. There's no difficulty in joining the two, despite the slight gauge difference.

 

If you get a full set of the 00-SF gauge tools, there is no reason to use a 1.3mm flangeway spacer, just use those 00-SF gauges as supplied. The 1.3mm spacer is just a kludge to modify the turnouts which you have already built to DOGA-Fine standard.

 

Brian Tulley who supplies the 00-SF gauge tools is a member of RMweb ( polybear ) and may reply here if he sees this.

 

edit: and I see Gordon has just replied ahead of me.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[RichardS]

Lee, I think you are facing the dilemma that an enormous number of modellers face -trying to get the best OO standards with the least effort and cost.

My own view is that if you have limited time then stick to Peco code 75. Once its ballasted - carefully, painted - carefully, and weathered - carefully it actually looks quite reasonable - in my view.

 

Presently I am trying to use Exactoscale Fast Track - it's a learning curve. I am compromising the look with Peco Code 75 switch and crossings. But I accept that. I don't see any point in building track for OO.

 

More to the point I cannot for the life of me see why PECO can't produce their Code 75 with "4mm scale" sleeper spacing. I know it's wrong but its better than 3.5mm sleeper spacing. It would sell by the bucket full!

 

Peco code 75 works and is ideal for those seeking an acceptable solution. All modelling is a compromise it's just where you want to draw the line.

 

Good luck with whatever you ultimately decide to do.

 

RichardS

[trisonic]

Yes, but to some trackwork is a model to be built too. Someone said above (or something similar) it is not a race to the finish.

 

 

There is nothing like seeing flowing trackwork, all hand built in formations that you simply cannot buy the components of.

 

Frankly I like Brian H's idea - sometimes we "overthink" the problems.

 

Best, Pete.

[dave_long]

Hehe crazy person here, I built Pensnett (see link below) entirely by hand including all the straight although their is very little straight ( which is one of the best reasons to build your own track ). Its 00-sf, the first time I'd handbuilt any track for atleast 10 years. I know dabble in P4 but do still build 00-sf, I think is wonderful.

 

You don't need to get rid of your flexi track as one of the reasons behind 00-fine is to move the wheels outwards slightly so you don't get the slop on the plain track plus the added benefit of better running pointwork.

 

Right get a loco or better a fixed wheel wagon and put it on your flexi track a straight bit and then hold the sides and move it side to side, you'll see that it moves a good couple of mm each way. Now 00-fine moves the wheels outwards to stop this side play, and 00-sf brings the rails closer to the wheel back 2 back to stop the sideplay. However both of these have affects on the pointwork, you will need to move out the wheels with 00-fine thus making them no use on another standard 00 layout ( standard just think Peco ) this is fine as long as you don't have lots of friends who want to bring stock round or vice versa. 00-sf tightens the gauge and with a little persuasion almost every standard rtr 00 wheelset will run through no problems, and you can have friends round or vice versa with no problems. Heljan do set their b2b a little wider so the wheels will need a little bringing in although the weight of their class 47 is heavy enough to ride the rails and back down ( not a recommended practice I may add ).

 

From some of your more recent posts Lee you seem as though you'd be quite capable of achieving what you want, things you've said I reckon you've past the jack it all in stage. I personally would recommend 00-sf and P4 ( but that another matter, but I did start out with I haven't the time money or inclination to change all the wheelsets etc but I'm now fully into with P4. Although I did have very little stock to start with after coming back to model railways )

 

ps I have a 12 month old son so I'm impressed you get a couple of hours a night, I struggle to get that a week.

 

Regards

 

Dave

[blueeighties]

All, I thank you. Everyones comments today/this evening have proved to be a real life saver, and answered a lot of my questions. Gordon s...I have previously looked at your layout thread, your work is fantastic. Please feel free to chuck in your tuppence worth tomorrow should you get any time.

 

So. I am starting to think, especially thanks to Martins informative explanations and reasoning, that oo fine is the way to go. Reasons as follows.

 

 

1 can run stock out of the box, with maybe the odd bit of tweaking.

2 can readily purchase a full set of jigs to assist with accurate turnout construction.

3 Can still use my existing stock of C and L flexi.

4 The frog area will look better again than my efforts so far with point construction.

5 not really an issue, but bonus of being able to use Peco offstage purely for quickness.

 

Have I concluded and got this right so far?

Martin....would I need to purchase a full set of jigs from the oo group, or would doubling up on some and leaving others be more beneficial in your opinion.

 

Dave I sympathise, don't worry, it really does get so much better, this time last Year, I couldnt really attempt any modelling at all, and didn't think I ever would be able to. Nearly 12 months on, things are still very hectic, but due to better sleeping patterns from little madam, its much better. When she is awake though, she takes so much interest in everything I do, the Butatone and scalpel has to me removed out of harms way, and we sit and draw Peppa Pig doodles

Signing off, more to discuss tomorrow I hope.

I will post some pics of my discoverings on here at some point too.

 

Regards

 

Lee

[polybear]

Hi Lee/Martin/All,

 

I'll try and add a little where I can....

(And many thanks to Martin for bringing this thread to the attention of the 00-sf Group)

 

Firstly, you are spot on with your assumptions 1 to 5 (with the proviso that the RTR is fairly recent, and not the older stock with "steam roller" wheels).

 

I can supply all required track gauges (16.2mm Roller Gauges, 15.2mm Check Rail Gauges, 16.2mm 3-Point Track Gauges and 1mm Crossing Flangeway Gauges). These are produced and sold "at cost" (i.e. no profit involved) to interested parties; I usually sell the Gauges in pairs, in whatever combination is required. However, if you want to mix and match then I'm quite happy to sell you whatever you would like - from individual gauges to full sets of gauges. Overseas is no problem too - I've supplied gauges to the USA, Canada, Holland, Thailand, South Africa...

 

I'll post some piccies of a test piece I've been constructing tonight, partly to test different methods of track construction and also to test my current stock (around 50) of unmodified RTR locos (steam and early diesel, from Hornby/Bachmann/Heljan) plus rolling stock also (which includes Dapol) thru' a 00-sf turnount. All I need to do is wire it up and add some means of turnount operation before I can start playing

 

HTH

 

Kind Regards,

Brian Tulley

[blueeighties]

Hi Brian. I sent you an email regarding the purchase of some gauges

Cheers,

Lee.

[polybear]

Hi Brian. I sent you an email regarding the purchase of some gauges

Cheers,

Lee.

 

 

Thanks Lee - I'm at work at the moment so I'll take a look/reply as soon as I get home.

 

Kind Regards,

Brian

[martin_wynne]

So. I am starting to think, especially thanks to Martins informative explanations and reasoning, that 00 fine is the way to go. Reasons as follows.

 

1 can run stock out of the box, with maybe the odd bit of tweaking.

2 can readily purchase a full set of jigs to assist with accurate turnout construction.

3 Can still use my existing stock of C and L flexi.

4 The frog area will look better again than my efforts so far with point construction.

5 not really an issue, but bonus of being able to use Peco offstage purely for quickness.

 

Have I concluded and got this right so far?

Hi Lee,

 

Yes, as Brian has said, that's all true for 00-SF.

 

To avoid any confusion I think it would be better to avoid the term "00 Fine" and always refer to whichever specific option you mean. There are at least 3 different sets of standards which have been called "00 Scale" or "00 Fine" over the years, and only 00-SF meets all your above requirements. They are:

 

A. 16.5mm gauge with 1.3mm flangeway gaps. Called 00-BF in Templot and also called BRMSB 00 -- DOGA Intermediate -- NMRA H0 -- Scale 00. This is a very old standard dating from the 1950s and before. I have here a Peco booklet from the 1960s called "Starting in Scale 00".

 

The majority of existing 00 layouts using handbuilt track use this standard, and most H0 layouts worldwide. This standard meets all your requirements except #4., where the wider gaps don't look so good and cause running problems with some of the finer wheels supplied in kits. Also I'm not too sure about #2. Certainly there are gauge tools available from various sources, but I don't know about a "full set" or how accurate they are. For example I don't know anywhere that you can buy a 1.3mm crossing flangeway gauge shim, and as far as I know the only source for a separate check rail gauge tool is to use the one from Brian Tulley intended for 00-SF. Also the standard is a bit variable, with different sources quoting 1.2mm, 1.25mm, 1.3mm, for the flangeway gap. And the NMRA have recently changed their H0 dimensioning to a "targeted" system which is flawed and makes no sense.

 

B. 16.5mm gauge with 1.0mm flangeway gaps. This is the finescale standard promoted by the Double O Gauge Association (DOGA) and for which C&L provide the gauge tools. It's called 00-DOGAF in Templot and often referred to as simply "00 Fine" which can be a bit confusing. Only your requirements #3 and #4 apply as wheels need the back-to-back increased to 14.8mm. As for #2, a full set of gauges ought to be available, but I don't believe a separate check gauge tool is available anywhere. Using a combined roller gauge is not a good way to set and test accurate check rails. A 1.0mm crossing flangeway gauge shim is available from Brian Tulley and also from the EM Gauge Society.

 

C. 16.2mm gauge with 1.0mm flangeway gaps. This is the standard now called 00-SF in Templot. It was invented 40 years ago by Roy Miller of the EM Gauge Society, when it was known as EM minus 2. It remained in the backwaters of the hobby for many years although used with great success by a few modellers. It has come into its own since the recent improvements in RTR wheels. For modellers prepared to check their wheels and deal with the occasional rogue wheelset, it now provides the best possible track appearance and running qualities for unmodified out-of-the-box modern RTR models and meets all 5 of your requirements. A full set of accurate gauge tools is available from Brian Tulley.

 

AMRA (Australian Model Railway Association) have recently adopted essentially the same dimensions for their "H0 Fine" standard: http://www.amra.asn....ewheeltrack.pdf

 

I suggest you use the names 00-BF, or 00-DOGAF, or 00-SF to refer to these different standards to avoid any confusion.

 

 

Martin....would I need to purchase a full set of jigs from the 00-SF group, or would doubling up on some and leaving others be more beneficial in your opinion.

I'm not too clear what you are asking me there, sorry. If you decide to adopt 00-SF you won't be able to use your existing C&L roller gauges at all. You could probably find a buyer for them on RMweb Marketplace.

 

At a bare minimum for track construction you need 2 plain track roller gauges, 2 check rail gauges and a crossing flangeway gauge shim (the latter is for setting the wing rails alongside the vee, don't use it for the check rails). A few extra plain track roller gauges are always handy. If you are building a small layout which requires some very sharp curves (say less than 30" radius) you also need a 3-point track gauge tool, or preferably a pair of them, to provide some gauge-widening. (Not needed if the sharp curves are only on plain track for which you are using flexi-track. This is in effect already "gauge-widened" to 16.5mm for sharp curves.)

 

Brian Tulley can provide all of these for 00-SF. He designed them and supplies them at cost from the toolmaking firm who make them, and is providing an excellent service in supporting 00-SF users for no personal gain. So a big thank you is due to Brian for that.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Taz]

Thanks Martin.

 

After thinking on this last night I have decided that I will build the rest of my pointwork to 00-SF so I will be in contact with Brian Tulley (too many Brians in this topic ) in the near future.

 

I think we should make clear to Lee though that he does not have to build all his plain track to 00-SF and can continue to use his already purchased C&L plain track with 00-SF points (I am going to be doing similar, but with SMP plain and some Colin Craig bits if I can refine my soldering skills enough ).

If you are doing this is it not worth keeping hold of the C&L roller gauges to use at the very tips of your pointwork so the rails are back out to 16.5mm gauge to match the plain track?

[blueeighties]

Morning Martin.

Was just asking what sort of combination of 00 finescale gauges you would recommend, I didn't mean combining them with my C and L rollers, I know I can't use them if going finescale.

My layout is going to have 36" curves, and not many of them, so I guess I can probably do without the 3 point gauges for curves, or do they have any benefit with turnout construction?

And congragulations, you seem to have a new 00 finescale convert

Regards,

Lee.

[martin_wynne]

If you are doing this is it not worth keeping hold of the C&L roller gauges to use at the very tips of your pointwork so the rails are back out to 16.5mm gauge to match the plain track?

Hi Brian,

 

That's an excellent point. Yes Lee, scrub my remarks about selling them.

 

But don't get them muddled up with your 00-SF roller gauges.

 

Martin.

[blueeighties]

Hiya Taz, I will keep the C And L gauges anyways, they will no doubt come in handy for something. And thanks for mentioning I can still use my flexi....Martin explained that one to me yesterday, another plus point in deciding 00 finescale is the one for me.

Seems ideal for someone like myself who wants better track, but without having to change all my wheels, makes me wonder why it hasn't been adopted by one of the commercial big boys.

Should I run for cover after that last question

Regards,

Lee.

[martin_wynne]

My layout is going to have 36" curves, and not many of them, so I guess I can probably do without the 3 point gauges for curves, or do they have any benefit with turnout construction?

Hi Lee,

 

You will need the 3-point gauges for pointwork construction only if any part of it is tighter than about 30" radius. That might be because you are using some very short turnouts in a small goods yard say, or some private industrial sidings. Or it might be because you are using longer turnouts, but on a sharply curved running line. Note that on straight track they provide an extra 16.2mm plain track gauge tool, so are still handy to have around even when not building sharp curves.

 

00-SF users may find it helpful to join the EM Gauge Society, because all the advice about curves, radii, clearances, gauge-widening, etc., for EM is equally applicable for 00-SF.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

I still use my C & L gauges as I make the transition from 16.5mm to 16.2 within the confines of the turnout itself. I deliberately lengthen the turnout at the heel end to allow this to happen.

 

So as others have suggested, you will still need 16.5mm gauges.

 

As an aside, I've never understood why the toe end of a turnout is the single track end and the heel the multiple track end....

 

It would make far more sense to me if it were the other way about.

 

 

[Brian Harrap]

Yes, but to some trackwork is a model to be built too. Someone said above (or something similar) it is not a race to the finish.

 

 

There is nothing like seeing flowing trackwork, all hand built in formations that you simply cannot buy the components of.

 

Frankly I like Brian H's idea - sometimes we "overthink" the problems.

 

Best, Pete.

Thanks Pete, I really do commend the idea of fiddling about with a bit of pointwork, crossings etc you have had a go at and pushing various wheels along to see just what really does happen at frogs and things. I reckon a lot more will be learnt by doing that than any amount of agonising over gauges (yes they have their place of course) and book and DVD looking at will ever learn you. Ever read a book on how to ride a bike? Brian.

[trisonic]

Quite right, Brian. An advantage is to build complicated patterns actually at a desk or workbench and playing around with it as you suggest. It's relatively cheap and you soon see what works and what doesn't without committing to the/a full size layout.

 

Best, Pete.

[martin_wynne]

As an aside, I've never understood why the toe end of a turnout is the single track end and the heel the multiple track end.... It would make far more sense to me if it were the other way about.

Hi Gordon,

 

Think of a side view of a foot instead of a plan view.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[blueeighties]

Hi guys.

Martin, as from now, my decided gauge is 00-SF, that's how I will try to remember to refer to it.

After all of this discussion, I now fully understand the complications and confusion that can arise, by calling something '00 finescale'

Regards,

Lee.

[blueeighties]

Evening all.

Just ordered a set of 00-sf gauges from Brian. The 2 points I have already constructed to 16.5mm, will be shelved, they arent perfect, but have served a very useful learning curve.

Once I get to grips and my confidence builds constructing pointwork, I may get a little more adventureous and look to exploring Templot. Cue 1001 more questions

Thanks again for everyones help. Its greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Lee.

 

Just to say, I am currently building some 16.2mm track.

I now build ALL track to 16.2 but when I first converted I kept my plain track at 16.5 and only altered and later built points to 16.2.

 

I had some Exacto track gauges that made it fairly easy to alter them to 16.2

 

If I were you at this stage, I would try to return the point kits or sell them on to someone else and start building pointwork in 16.2.

 

I also make sure I use Exactoscale chairs as they allow a little more clearance on the inside of the rail/chair to allow some courser wheels to run.

 

I could post some more images if you wish. There was a Fotopic site with more until it went down.

 

I build for a club and have to say, since changing to 16.2, we've never looked back.

 

It would be much worse to build 16.5 now and then want to change later, when, perhaps, your priorities change.

 

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[blueeighties]

Hi Dave, thanks for the pictures. Exactly the conclusion I came to.

A further question, at last on a different subject!

With regards to soldering, what sort of flux do I need to use for general trackwork, nickel silver rail, and wiring? I have looked at the Carrs range, but there seems to be a bewildering choice.

Regards

 

Lee.

[Donw]

Lee the flexi- track will be fine. On plain track as long as the wheels are running on the rail it will be fine the problems arise with pointwork. If you consider thewheels running through the crossing if the gap is wide a fat flange can get through as can one set with a small back to back but the finer flange set well out can wobble about a bit. Thats not 100% correct but I am trying to give the idea. If you adopt 00-sf build the points with the gauges as suggested but connect them to the flexitrack. I would build short lengths between points using the gauges but for main lines and sidings use the flexi. You may need to add one or two sleepers for the transistion from 16.2 to 16.5. You should end up with pointwork through which most of your stuff runs more smoothly.

If you buy old Tri-ang secondhand it might not go through your points but it probably isn't as good as modern 00 in many ways.

Don

[66C]

Hi Dave, thanks for the pictures. Exactly the conclusion I came to.

A further question, at last on a different subject!

With regards to soldering, what sort of flux do I need to use for general trackwork, nickel silver rail, and wiring? I have looked at the Carrs range, but there seems to be a bewildering choice.

Regards

 

Lee.

 

Hi Lee

 

I have always used cored solder intended for electrical use. You should not need additional flux with that.

 

Regards