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Camden Shed

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On 01/04/2019 at 18:50, gordon s said:

 

You know me too well!......:)

 

Think about how much space you need to clamber in to solder a tie bar or a wire. Believe me, trying to do any of the other drawbacks would be a piece of cake compared to soldering in a confined place.

 

I can’t recall what the running length is available to you for Stanley to arrive at his 1:200 gradient and what clearance that would provide between the two boards. With the support structure and clearance for Tortoise motors etc plus your access depth, you will need a minimum of 400mm between the two levels.

 

That will require a run of at least 40m, even with a 1:100 gradient.

 

Think long and hard about that one......

 

Hi Gordon,

 

Thank you as always.

 

I was trying to go through exactly those thought processes.  The only way to get near to a 40m run is to have a double circuit of the room for the rise up and fall down between the scenic section and the storage yard.   That isn’t completely impossible, but it introduces a complexity in both construction and running that I’m not keen on doing.  Learning from your own efforts over the last few years, I know it’s never as easy in practice.

 

One of the design priorities for this version was simplicity.  I have made each of the 4 circuits largely independent, avoiding too many massively complex formations on curves at each end of the yard.  So I think that, although I found Stanley’s suggestions very interesting, I will pursue making a compressed plan for the scenic section.

 

The other side of my head is saying that we’ve been in the new house for 10 months and I’ve done nothing.  So who’s to say I’ll ever do anything?!?  

 

I might consider doing a compromise of building the storage yard as I wanted for Camden Shed, but making a temporary scenic section of a 4 track urban mainline with perhaps no turnouts at all, just so that I can have something and somewhere to run.  Then build Camden Shed mk2 sometime in the future. Either way, I will need considerable assistance to get anything built at all given the rest of my life at present.  Off to China again for work on Wednesday - will be the 5th time there and 10 times to Thailand in the last 16 months.  

 

Playing Saunton today with a good mate.

 

Hope that we can arrange a game soon! 

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain 

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Iain, when you say you might build a temporary scenic section could you not do that in a way that the turnouts are there so you can then add to the layout over time? I think it was David Jenkinson who wrote about his little long drag that it came down because he spent so long building that in 2 years he never ran anything, plus given you suffer from hitting and then chasing a small round ball syndrome like myself and Gordon time gets eaten away very quickly.

 

Saunton - one of the courses in my bucket list so hopefully one day so hope you had a good day, maybe i'll have to go and play in something in their open week one year. which did you play by the way, east or west?

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Hi Steve,

Yes, it’s possible I could make the scenic section in sections, beginning by just doing the mainlines and then adding as I can.  May well be a better idea.

16 West - nice view!

 

C2F21E30-EB52-48ED-8747-CA6E8A6DDDAD.jpeg.723a84e2ead34e326a4ade63e6bde1e4.jpeg

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain 

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Oh Huba Huba. Something between a 9 iron and 3 wood depending in the wind i suspect. I think a conversation with SWMBO about going to play in part of their open week in August is on the cards. I was lucky enough to play Royal North Devon 25 years ago and I suspect this is even better.

 

Anyway back to the trains, I guess there is a small amount of woodwork 1st, but you could always contract it out to Mr S - He is retired after all so needs to be kept busy now Eastwood town is progressing so quickly.

Edited by pirouets
Poor spelling

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Please forgive my complete ignorance - the "rough stores" shown on the track schematic with a siding from the turntable feeding directly into the building itself - what exactly were "rough stores"?

 

What was typical of the items being delivered and what rolling stock would have been used to deliver them? What would the interior of the rough stores building have been like?

 

For once google has failed me completely! Many thanks

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No definitive idea to be honest, sorry.  I’d suggest a few things but they’d be guesses. 

 

Iain

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35 minutes ago, 92220 said:

No definitive idea to be honest, sorry.  I’d suggest a few things but they’d be guesses. 

 

Iain

 

Many thanks Iain - you're obviously not alone and believe me, I've googled from every direction but to no avail! I've sent an email to the "Engine Shed society" to see if they can help out. My guess was that "rough" was implying unfinished, so materials for the machine shop that required further work - steel coils, plate, castings; they'd need a gantry crane inside the shed to be unloaded...

 

I'm curious to hear how you'd imagine the stores in use - baffling isn't it! Are there any ex-Camden workers on the forum? Sadly I don't suppose such work environments were particularly conducive to a long and healthy retirement.

Edited by dpaws

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In the heavy truck industry, rough stores held castings before being machined. This was at Sandbach and many names originated from the railway works at Crewe. Hope this helps with the search.

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8 hours ago, Eround said:

In the heavy truck industry, rough stores held castings before being machined. This was at Sandbach and many names originated from the railway works at Crewe. Hope this helps with the search.

 

Many thanks indeed for your input - my instincts seem to be along the same lines. I'll revert if I dig up some more info.

 

Incidentally, my web searches have uncovered many railway sites that I've missed before.

 

In relation to an earlier comment on the thread regarding prototypical workings for Camden, I stumbled across these records of "Ashpit Arrivals" from Annesley MPD in the early 60's which highlights just how busy these depots were: 

 

http://annesleyfireman.com/id13.html

 

 

(Apologies for straying off the topic of Camden but I hope it may be of interest to someone :))

 

 

Edited by dpaws

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Always nice to see an update, Iain.  

 

From experience, I suspect you'll find that as you progress, you constantly play something of  a "shell game", shifting piles of materials and tools from one place to another, to free up open space to work on the layout.  At first you'll have the whole room, but that will become harder and harder as you build.  

 

One suggestion I would make it try and complete each "trade" as much as possible before moving to the next - i.e. all the track laying, all the ballasting, all the fencing... whatever.  You'll benefit by keeping your momentum up, and your skill level - and result - consistent.   My caveat to this is that if you get bored or frustrated, switch to something different, so give your brain some exercise.

 

Little bites, often.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

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Good progress Iain, albeit unglamourous but certainly very useful in the grand scheme of things. You work looks very neat and well throught out for sure.

 

Do you have track going under your workbench there at the top end of the room? If so neat solution but are you concerned about derailments and access in that area? I guess the chances are minimal

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3 hours ago, millerhillboy said:

Good progress Iain, albeit unglamourous but certainly very useful in the grand scheme of things. You work looks very neat and well throught out for sure.

 

Do you have track going under your workbench there at the top end of the room? If so neat solution but are you concerned about derailments and access in that area? I guess the chances are minimal

Thanks mate.

 

Yes, there is a 4 track curve under the workbench. It’s 4’ minimum radius and smoothly formed.  I hope.  Also not fully enclosed.  I will take a photo at some point.  The rear (outer) is fully enclosed but the inside curve has easy enough access should anything derail.  Which I hope it won’t!

 

Scott - thanks for looking in and being encouraging! 

I will lay, wire and test the entire off-scene section before building the scenic bit.  Then I plan that the order will be to

lay, wire and test the mainlines

Sort out any issues.

Then the same for each section of the shed area and the goods yard.  

Then

paint, clean, test,

ballast, clean, test,

weather, clean, test.  

 

Or something like that.  

 

Hope all well with you.

 

Iain

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Good to see Camden back , and has always look forward to your progress on the layout it’s self or the rolling stock for it.

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A little more progress.

 

This was my workbench in the old shed:

 

DDFA3460-73D9-40B7-8F7B-659B24ABA270.jpeg.cdaf5627087323e09c001c19758a50de.jpeg

 

 

I dismantled and rebuilt it as a standing desk over the south end return curve boards:

 

AD2330D4-1412-471B-815E-499549F70CA6.jpeg.6373312d46bd0b80e605e0481a7f0860.jpeg

 

The shadow is deceiving.  The boards are flat!

 

Iain

 

 

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38 minutes ago, millerhillboy said:

nice idea, I love the idea of sitting at a workbench fiddling about whilst trains run past

 

This end will be a standing bench, the other end will be seated.  There will also be a 6’ long bench above the storage yard which will use the operator’s stool.  My thinking is to have loco construction, soldering, plastic card work etc all separated.  But it could just be a bigger shambles!

 

Iain

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Hi Iain,

 

Great to see such progress; glad if I played just a little part with some thoughts as to get the best fit in the space available.

 

Don't go too fast though - your stock is currently enjoying its little sojourn 250 miles away in the northern fells ...

 

Graham 

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Thanks for your help Graham, as always.  Your advice on the overall shape of the layout was absolutely invaluable.  I’ve been able to fit in the whole thing to scale, and also to enable access without too much contortion.  

 

Constructing it all, however, will still require some assistance.  I’ve done the easy bits (although the under-bench section wasn’t totally straightforward) but the bridge/lifting section and the main scenic boards will require more experience and better carpentry than mine.  Partly because I will need to be able to turn the boards upright for wiring and tortoise fitting.  The storage boards will be much simpler to wire and I plan to use above board switches and motors, so these will be wired in situ.  

 

Also, some advice on the storage yard would be very helpful from anyone who has something useful to offer.

 

Here is the situation:

 

I have a much longer length than originally planned.  Even allowing for curves and a fan of pointwork at each end I think I have 24’ unbroken run.  I have boards 2’6” wide.  Broadly speaking, trains will stay in their roads.  So I was thinking of 4 roads on each of up and down fast and slow lines.  This is future proofing - I won’t fill it all immediately.

 

But 24’ x 16 is a lot of track.

 

But it may well be useful to design in access to each road from any and every line.  

 

I also might leave the possibility of kick back sidings in the future even if they don’t go in yet.

 

I am thinking of putting a cassette system in for the traffic in and out of the goods yard, which will be entirely separate to the main lines.  This on the basis that entire trains could be turned off scene and returned at some other time.  Again, this doesn’t need to happen immediately.

 

Thoughts welcome.

 

Iain

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Hi Iain,

 

A few thoughts, as requested.

 

First of all, 16 roads in 2' 6" is do-able in 4mm but a little tight. I usually work on 2" (50mm) per road in a fiddle yard, hence 2' 6" would equate to 15 roads. I'm sure it will all run faultlessly but if you even did need to get access to a train in - say - road 7 then it can be a touchy tricky to get at with trains either side.

 

However...

 

Even with monster 16 coach formations heading past Camden shed, 24 feet is a helluva length to house one train. And, let's be honest, not EVERY train in and out of Euston was quite that length. In 4mm, 24 feet would quite happily house two 12 coach trains nose-to-tail. When it comes to the slow lines, the trains would be even shorter (eight suburban coaches, say?) so you could get even more trains in one road. So do you actually need 16 roads in the fiddle yard for through trains?

 

When we were together, you were talking about having the capability to terminate / reverse some trains so as to have a purpose for locos coming on and off Camden shed? Is this still in your thoughts? In which case you could - say - have 12 through roads and 3 reversible roads down the centre, with the fan of points either end arranged to as to get to and from the reversible roads from all roads? I've built 3 reversible roads into the new fiddle yard for Shap and so far they seem to be working fine.

 

Looking forward to a further meet up in due course where we can explore some of these thoughts a little further, perhaps?

 

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Many thanks indeed, Graham.

 

Some of your thoughts have also been percolating my jet-lagged brain.  15 was the figure I originally worked out but I thought I might squeeze in 16.

 

Before I begin, let’s be honest, it will take some considerable time even to part-fill this storage yard unless I just bulk buy about 150 coaches.  And that’s not going to happen because I like building them as well.  Quite apart from the expense! 

 

I was also thinking about the possibility of 2 trains per road in most of the storage yard.

 

I was also wondering whether I have staggered up and down yards so only one train per road but 12-13 roads in each of up and down yards.  But I think that involves more pointwork and less actual storage space?

 

Most of the slow lines will have shorter trains so yes, 8 coaches on suburban workings and 6 coach 501 sets.  In time, one 501 set on each of the up and down slow lines would be good, but to begin with I’ll aim for one set to work bi-directionally.  Maybe all the slow lines could be bidirectional as you suggest. 

 

The Caledonian will be 8 as well so that is one shorter fast line train.  Do I make it possible for that rake and others to be able to run as both up and down trains as will no doubt have happened in real life?   

 

One other thing I've never worked out is exactly how empty stock trains (ecs) worked.  There were carriage sidings at Willesden, so north of the shed, and any ecs working would have passed the shed.  But also up and down carriage sheds south of Camden Shed so many ecs workings wouldn’t have gone past the shed.  Not sure which did and which didn’t.   I know often the train engine banked its empty stock out of the station then fell back and went across the scissors to the yard.  

 

I’m currently inclined not to worry too much about it.

 

I also need one up road (the innermost one ) to remain clear for reversing any up loco back onto shed up and over all the running lines having brought the train “into Euston”.  It can also be a through road for continuous running.  But to be honest I could have several roads clear for continuous running for some considerable time.  

 

I think I have enough space not to worry too much about squeezing all the pointwork fan into as small a space as possible.  But it’s also pointless using space unnecessarily.  

 

That was a bit of a ramble, sorry.

 

Further thoughts welcome

 

thank you,

 

Iain

 

 

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This is the arrangement of the mainline storage sidings for Carlisle (diagram, not trackplan) with separate up and down loops. Through lines run outside the loops and shown in red. Originally the layout was to have two sets of these end to end but one was abolished to make way for Garsdale - and now of course there isn't enough storage space....

838531336_ScreenShot2019-11-15at08_22_00.png.fc97b5370896265a65dd328bf508cbf6.png

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That’s helpful, thank you, Mike.  It’s what I (clumsily) meant by staggered up and down storage yards.

 

I could have the up fast and down fast arranged like this with a bidirectional slow yard between the two?

 

What are the advantages and disadvantages?

 

Iain

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