Camden Shed

[Barry O]

DGs work well using an electromagnet.  And..if required you can reverse sets or individual coaches no problemo.  Perhaps Mike Edge can explain how he has set some of the stock on Carlisle to have uncoupling (local sets I think).

 

Baz

[Michael Edge]

We're using modified DG couplings on some of the Carlisle stock, the sets which have to be uncoupled in the bay platforms since there's no possible way of reaching these by hand. The ends of the sets have a complete DG coupling fitted but the locos just have a thin wire hook at the same position as the DG  hook would be. This allows the screw coupling to be retained on the loco so it can still be coupled in the usual way and also because there is no latch we don't need electromagnets. Each bay platform has a long permanent magnet at the point where the loco stops. Because there is no latch on the loco coupling we can still propel trains over them without uncoupling.

[LNER4479]

21 hours ago, 92220 said:

A further and final thought before I start snoring.

 

The 3 outer roads on each side will easily accommodate 2 long trains in each. So I need a ladder of points in the centre of each set of roads to allow locos to be released.  I think.  Maybe?  Probably?

Just to point out that you will lose one stabling point for a train by doing this, as you'll need to leave the front section of road 3 (say) empty to allow the locos to run forward before gaining the reversing loco road through the fiddle yard. And then you'll need to back the replacing loco on (off Crewe North!) to avoid having a rake of coaches stranded in the fiddle yard without a loco on.

 

12 hours ago, 92220 said:

The more I think about it, the more the mid-way ladder only applies to the up fast roads.  

Locos bringing trains into Euston have to reverse back onto shed a reasonably believably short time after passing the shed.  So these need to be uncoupled and reversed whether they bring their train into the front or rear section of any road regardless.

 

Down trains go to the north, and don’t need to return for a while, so can wait until the train in front has been released, move forward into the front section of that road, and only then get uncoupled and stored before turning and return with an up train some time later.

 

Of course, having enough stock to populate fully all the roads is some way off.  I’m thinking of the more distant future and operations then.

Yes, I think that's right - only necessary for the up fast roads.

 

Certainly make things quite interesting for the operator of the 'Crewe' end of the fiddle yard.

[92220]

On 11/02/2020 at 20:44, LNER4479 said:

Just to point out that you will lose one stabling point for a train by doing this, as you'll need to leave the front section of road 3 (say) empty to allow the locos to run forward before gaining the reversing loco road through the fiddle yard. And then you'll need to back the replacing loco on (off Crewe North!) to avoid having a rake of coaches stranded in the fiddle yard without a loco on.

 

Yes, I think that's right - only necessary for the up fast roads.

 

Certainly make things quite interesting for the operator of the 'Crewe' end of the fiddle yard.

I think that’s exactly as I imagined it, yes. 

I knew I would have effectively 5 trains stored in the 3 unidirectional roads on each of the up and down sides.  With the front half of one road always free to release locos or allow one to reverse and couple on.  8 bidirectional roads - some will be able to accommodate 2 trains easily enough lengthwise, but they could only be operated by the front one moving out and the rear one taking its place, as on Little Bytham.  
 

The yard will have the capacity to store at least 18 long trains (10-14 coaches).  I think I could make up 5 or 6 with what I have so far. So, realistically again, I am looking at the long term.

 

The oddities - short ash and coal wagon trains for example - will be able to go into “Crewe North” because a Jinty and a couple of wagons isn’t much longer than a Coronation.  Not that I have any photographic evidence of these trains, but I imagine this would be the case.  
 

How does the rough layout of pointwork at the Euston end look?  
 

Iain

 

 

[92220]

On 11/02/2020 at 08:24, Michael Edge said:

We're using modified DG couplings on some of the Carlisle stock, the sets which have to be uncoupled in the bay platforms since there's no possible way of reaching these by hand. The ends of the sets have a complete DG coupling fitted but the locos just have a thin wire hook at the same position as the DG  hook would be. This allows the screw coupling to be retained on the loco so it can still be coupled in the usual way and also because there is no latch we don't need electromagnets. Each bay platform has a long permanent magnet at the point where the loco stops. Because there is no latch on the loco coupling we can still propel trains over them without uncoupling.

 

Thank you Mike, and Barry.

 

I could even have a simpler solution.

 

All locos have a simple wire bar on the rear for coupling to rakes.  Those rakes in the up fast roads that need uncoupling in the storage sidings could have a simple tension lock and a ramp.

 

Come to think of it, all trains will need uncoupling - up trains fairly soon and down trains at a more leisurely rate - so I need to work that out too.  The only place where it is absolutely necessary to have some automation of uncoupling will be in the rear sections of the up fast roads, which will be on the far side of the yard.  But even if I rely on manual uncoupling for most trains, a reliable and unobtrusive system is necessary, and it must be one that is compatible with a simple wire bar or goalpost on the rear of each loco. 

 

Iain

[Barry O]

Iain, having looked at the bar and goalpost I think I will stick with DGs. They are generally robust enough for my needs. On Barnbow East I will need the attributes of dgs in the station and fiddle yard roads.

Baz

[92220]

A little bit of progress since the visit of LNER4479.

 

I have wired in correct sections the whole of the north FY approach that was laid by Graham.  Once I get my head around the logic of a control panel for this, it should be easy enough to switch each road on and off as required, and to set the route allocated to one of the 4 main line controllers.  I’ve seen that system on Little Bytham and I think it is what is required.  Yes I know I could go DCC and obviate the need for all this but 2 things come rapidly to mind:

 

1. I want to be able to isolate sections anyway when testing to identify any problems.

2. I can’t afford 70 decoders.  Yet.  
 

If I wire this entire layout correctly for DC it should be easy to turn on all sections and run it DCC in the future, if I change.  

 

I had a couple of issues with two Peco turnouts that were not properly modified electrically.  Guess whose job it was to do that?  It’s harder to lift and relay than it is to get it right the first time, I’ve learned.   

 

A couple of the Peco switches are troublesome.  I will need to sort these out.  
 

Then, I’ve completed this end of the 9 birectional roads and associated pointwork, plus the first third to a half of the plain track in each road.

 

Lost in road 3 is a Bachmann Jubilee and 7 or 8 bogies.  Since most of my Mk1s are with Graham at the moment, I’ve used a job lot of GUV underframes.   They are helpfully light for testing so they will find any imperfection.  
 

I couldn’t realistically bring the pointwork for roads 8-11 any closer to the camera due to the taper of the boards.  The curvature of the plain track in road 9 looks tight in this perspective but it is about 39-40” or 1m.  All the rest is very gentle. 

 

Once the whole of this section is fully wired and tested, I will use the underboard space to store a cubic mile of stuff.  Which should then make constructing the other half of the FY more straightforward.

 

Getting there.

 

 

 

 

Iain

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by 92220
Spelling and omission

[Barry O]

If you have 2 controllers for up and 2 for down one switch per section is required. Moving from up to down involves using "black" sections...  ike edge is better explaining that than I am. It means yousont need to set 4 controller settings for a move from up to down lines.

 

Baz

[Michael Edge]

You need to get away from the mindset of a controller for a specific line. The combination of the "black section" system and linking sections mean that any controller can link to any part of the layout as required. You can then either keep on running through with the same controller or hand the train on to another operator.

[Denbridge]

18 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

You need to get away from the mindset of a controller for a specific line. The combination of the "black section" system and linking sections mean that any controller can link to any part of the layout as required. You can then either keep on running through with the same controller or hand the train on to another operator.

Any chance of a schematic for a sample layout section? I think I understand, but would be interested to see more. Thanks

[gordon s]

From what you describe it is similar to cab control that I used on an old DC layout. In simple terms, every section has a dual changeover switch. Controller A is wired to one side and controller B is wired to the other. The output then goes to the track. This allows you to choose controller A or B over the whole layout and does away with the transfer of a train from one controller to the other. For instance, you can run a loco from a shed right into the heart of the station and once stopped, change the switch which will then allow the station controller to take the train.

[Denbridge]

16 minutes ago, gordon s said:

From what you describe it is similar to cab control that I used on an old DC layout. In simple terms, every section has a dual changeover switch. Controller A is wired to one side and controller B is wired to the other. The output then goes to the track. This allows you to choose controller A or B over the whole layout and does away with the transfer of a train from one controller to the other. For instance, you can run a loco from a shed right into the heart of the station and once stopped, change the switch which will then allow the station controller to take the train.

It's the black section system that intrigues me. I think I've got my head around it, but would be interested in seeing if it's an improvement over other methods I've used

[92220]

11 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

You need to get away from the mindset of a controller for a specific line. The combination of the "black section" system and linking sections mean that any controller can link to any part of the layout as required. You can then either keep on running through with the same controller or hand the train on to another operator.

 

Thank you, Mike.  

I think I understand, mostly.   If so, that’s what I meant in effect - not that there was a dedicated controller for each of the 4 main lines, but that there would be 4 controllers and each or any of those could take any train or loco from the fiddle yard to whichever of the 4 main lines it would run on, and then return to the correct road in the yard.  It just means the right arrangement for switching of sections, I think.  Which is, unless I am greatly mistaken, how Tony has wired and switched Little Bytham.
 

An added complication is the operation of the shed area, which will pass locos to, and receive locos from, the fiddle yard, as well as moving locos and short ash and coal trains around.  But that should be no more difficult than the above except for:

1. some of the ecs moves which will be on the loco line and then transfer to down fast via the scissors at the south end of the shed.

2. if I can work out banking correctly, some locos will fall off and return to the shed area, again via the scissors. 

 

But if I have understood the principle, it’s all about being able to take any train on any section on any controller. 
 

What I don’t grasp yet is how the switching works, and the “black section” definitely needs explanation or pointing to a good description online somewhere, please!

 

The goods yard will be a completely separate mini-diorama so I’m not concerned about that at all.
 

Thanks for your interest and assistance as always.

 

 

9 hours ago, gordon s said:

From what you describe it is similar to cab control that I used on an old DC layout. In simple terms, every section has a dual changeover switch. Controller A is wired to one side and controller B is wired to the other. The output then goes to the track. This allows you to choose controller A or B over the whole layout and does away with the transfer of a train from one controller to the other. For instance, you can run a loco from a shed right into the heart of the station and once stopped, change the switch which will then allow the station controller to take the train.

 

Thanks, Gordon.  I can envisage that, I think, but I’m not quite as clear how I do that for more controllers.  Although, in a temporary moment of clairvoyance, I do see rotary switches in my future.

 

I imagine that I will want to wire it so I set the points and energise the power for a particular route from siding to main line and back, switch on the correct section in the fiddle yard, then switch that whole route to a specific controller.  Then that train or movement is driven according to the signals on the scenic side.
 

Iain

[gordon s]

Yes, you’re right. Just use quality rotary switches to control each section and then just select controller 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. That way any controller can access any part of the layout. Using switching in this method also prevents two controllers trying to access the same section. I seem to recall you can use a common bus feed to the track, so only one wire from each controller goes to the rotary switch. It was a long time ago, so I’ll see if I pull out a typical wiring diagram. A search on cab control should bring something to light.

 

Personally, DCC is a lot easier., particularly when it comes to two loco’s on the same piece of track when banking.....

 

Edit. This may be food for thought..

 

https://rail.felgall.com/cc.htm

Edited February 26, 2020 by gordon s

[Jol Wilkinson]

If each controller is supplied separately from its own transformer then one "side" of the controller outputs can be "common" and fed to one rail of each track. The other "side" is connected by a switch to the opposite rail. I think that this used to  be referred as cab control. It is the system I use with two controllers and On-Off-on toggle switches. I used Modelex 16vac transformers with two a/c outputs, but only one output from each transformer feeds a controller, the other output is used for point motors, etc.

 

For four tracks a rotary switch is ideal. However a sufficient number of poles (seven in this case) gives a neutral position between each controller input so that sections can be readily isolated.

 

12 pole single pole break before make switches are available quite cheaply from Rapid Electronics or Ebay. It's worth checking for current capacity, some are rated at only 300mA, others at 1A which would be okay.

[Michael Edge]

9 hours ago, gordon s said:

Yes, you’re right. Just use quality rotary switches to control each section and then just select controller 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. That way any controller can access any part of the layout. Using switching in this method also prevents two controllers trying to access the same section. I seem to recall you can use a common bus feed to the track, so only one wire from each controller goes to the rotary switch. It was a long time ago, so I’ll see if I pull out a typical wiring diagram. A search on cab control should bring something to light.

 

Personally, DCC is a lot easier., particularly when it comes to two loco’s on the same piece of track when banking.....

 

Edit. This may be food for thought..

 

https://rail.felgall.com/cc.htm

If I was to use DCC for banking (and the new layout requires all trains up the hill to be banked - sometimes involving up to four locos) I would need at least two drivers for every train. In practice all locos run together with the one controller once the train is formed up. See the Wentworth Junction thread for more on this but we were doing banking operations routinely on a Leeds club layout more than 40 years ago - we do have a lot of experience.

[Michael Edge]

In all my suggestions I was assuming that common return wiring was to be used so only one wire per section has to be switched.

On my layouts the outer rail is common everywhere, all section breaks are made in the inner rail only, the diagram below shows how one of the black sections is switched on Wentworth Junction.

The green rails are all common, up main inner rail is blue, down main orange and siding coral. Point switches shown in capitals, frogs (yellow) switched by them in lower case. Starting with A, one switch on the point motor switches the frog to green or blue, the second switch (I use Tortoise point motors - otherwise an additional microswitch is required) switches the black section between orange and blue. On the single slip C switches its frog c between green and black, D switches its frog between orange and green. B works just as an ordinary turnout with one switched frog.

When all points are normal, i.e. set straight through, the black section is switched to the orange down main rail which is one section through the junction. Each section has a two way centre off switch set sideways in the panel to connect to the controllers at either side (most panels have two controllers - sometimes only one but no more than two). Assuming that the up main is connected to one controller and the down to the other one when points A are normal the down main is connected through the black section. When points A are reversed the balck section is connected to the up main and therefore that controller, the down main is unaffected and remains connected to the other one. If the up main and siding sections are switched to the same controller then a train can be run through without switching any of the down main sections.

This is not in itself a fail safe system, there is no protection against conflicting movements - that's down to the operator's skill and experience but it does avoid a lot of switch setting and there is no need for multi way rotary switches.

This is a simple example but the same principle can be extended across multiple junctions.

That's more than enough for now, I'll go into the link system later.

[92220]

Thank you, Mike.  That’s very useful indeed. I will revisit later today and it will become clear.  I know it is simple enough.  I have wired for common return so this definitely applies.

 

Thanks Gordon.  I’m not going to use DCC for at least a long time, so I will be attempting to wire and control this layout as described.  I think I am on the right lines if I’ve understood correctly, but I just need to work out the details more clearly.  

 

Now this next question will reveal that I am far from expert in this wiring domain:

 

I am looking for some switches which turn a section on or off and, at the same time, illuminate or extinguish a light or LED on the control panel.  

 

now I do get that these will be on-off switches.....

 

Do push-to-make on-off switches exist with an integral LED?  Or do I need switches that simultaneously change the section and the LED?
 

Iain

 

[gordon s]

You're OK , I'm not suggesting you do, hence the word 'personally'......

 

Switch wise, I used these. I have plenty of them here in different formats, if you want a few to play around with. 

 

https://www.rapidonline.com/salecom-miniature-toggle-switches-75284

[Michael Edge]

Now for the linked section system.

I'll use the Wentworth Junction panel for an example, these are just the sections not the rails, remeber that the outside (top) rail is common and all section breaks are in the inner rail. This drawing shows all the switches, the ones mounted horizontally are the two way centre off section switches, the ones mounted vertically are on/off. These are all single pole, if you use double pole switches the other contacts could be used for LED indicators but I haven't done this. The two black sections (without switches) can be seen at the crossovers.

Taking the up line (top green section) from left to right. The gold coloured part is the link section from the next panel (fiddle yard), then a dotted green section with an on/off switch, then the main (green) section switch and finally the blue coloured part which is the link section to the next panel (fiddle yard again).

To bring a train along this line the main section switch is set to whichever controller you are using + the on/off switch on the dotted section (this connects the dotted section to the main section not the controller - it's used to separate assisting locos from the front of up trains, WJ operation is a bit specialised). Next the link switch at the RH end is switched on, this connects the link section to the main section, not the controller. Finally the other link is switched on to connect this end to the main section and the train driven through. When the train is off scene it is normally stopped and the links turned off, the fiddle yard operator (his link to the same section would normally be off) can then take the train the rest of the way. If he has his controller set the same way this can be done without stopping. The next panels have the same switching arrangement, the link sections can't be directly connected to any controller.

If you want to drive the train from either of the next panels (in this case both are the fiddle yard but on more complex layouts the connections can be made right through several panels) put both links on with the main section off, this is akin to switching out a signal box in full size practice.

This is the simplest possible example with just one main section, the down line has two main sections, in this case both can be off and with the links on a train can be driven through.

If there are more than two main sections it's a bit more complicated since there will be sections in the middle which can't be connected to the links. There are two ways round this, a separate "link through" switch can be fitted to each line which simply connects all the sections to each other - I've used this system on Herculaneum Dock and Cwmafon. Alternatively, without any additional equipment, one controller can be left out of use with its reversing switch in the off (centre) position and each section connected to this unused one.

It's all much more complicated to explain than to fit and use, in practice it's almost infinitely adaptable, very useful in the event of controller failures/lack of drivers and one controller can be connected to an entire system if necessary.

Cwmafon is much more complex than this, it's all DC with five control postions but the whole lot can be linked to any one of them.

[Jol Wilkinson]

5 hours ago, 92220 said:

 

Do push-to-make on-off switches exist with an integral LED?  Or do I need switches that simultaneously change the section and the LED?
 

Iain

 

Iain,

 

yes they do but most are for "industrial" applications and tend to be larger than you might want for a control panel as well as being expensive, especially if you need a lot.

 

I did find some several years ago for switching indicators LEDs on the fiddle yards from the main control panel on London Road. However, they didn't seem very robust but didn't get much use anyway. IIRC they came from Squires Models at Bognor.

 

http://www.squirestools.com/files/e30.pdf     

(page 2306)

 

 

If you use section switches to control indicator LEDs you will need two pole versions. The rotary switch option for four controllers might be good as you could use 6 way, 2 pole switches with a "centre off" position to completely isolate each section from the controllers and use the second switch poles to feed the LEDs.

 

Sounds like a project for the Science Department.

 

Jol

[Barry O]

The DCC guys in settle have push button switches with integral LEDs.  Not cheap but...

 

Baz

[Barry O]

While the system described by Mike has been used on various layouts over the years he forgot to mention one phrase.."Turn you bl#@dy link off!

Baz

Edited February 28, 2020 by Barry O
Spullchkcr

[92220]

10 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

It's all much more complicated to explain than to fit and use,

indeed.....I’m sure it is!  Although you’ve done a good job with the explanation because I think I nearly understand.  

 

I really appreciate the time and attention, not to mention expertise and experience, that you’ve given me here.  Thank you.

I will ponder.   

 

My thoughts at the moment on switches and LEDs for each road in the fiddle yard are to use the simple small double pole ones suggested by both Gordon and Jol, and to wire up separate LEDs as required.  It would be useful to see on the control panel which road and indeed, which section of which road, is live at any time.   The Peco pointwork in the fiddle yard will be switched by stud and probe with CDUs, while the handbuilt stuff on the scenic section will be tortoised.  If that’s a verb.  Which it isn’t.  
 

Gordon - no worries re DCC, I knew you weren’t trying to persuade me. However, I do genuinely want to have the chance to switch later if I choose, so building it and wiring it the correct way is important. 
 

Iain

[Michael Edge]

I'm glad you can understand it at least, it was in use on the Leeds club layout when I joined LMRS in 1972. That was the first time I had seen linked section control although I had read about it in magazines. If you watch a Leeds layout at a show listen for the call to turn your link off (Barry's expletive above is a bit on the mild side) - you'll see every operator's hand twitch towards the link switches on their panels.

Incidentally I'm not a Luddite about DCC, I use it myself for part of Herculaneum Dock but it is nigh on useless for banking operations and certainly for one as complex as Wentworth Junction. The main line part of Herculaneum Dock will remain DC, the sections serve the purpose of keeping the trains apart. 

To take a much bigger example though Carlisle is all DCC and we did once have an open day with about six or seven (mostly amateur) operators driving trains all over the layout. The only crash was caused by the owner himself....

The big disadvantage of DCC on that layout is that it's impossible to read a number plate at 30m range - you don't need to know where a loco is but you do need to know what it is. Come to think of it that would make Brunswick shed pretty difficult as well, from the operator's viewpoint all GC locos look alike, never mind the impossibility of reading the numbers (even with a roofless shed).