Painting C&L plastic sleepers, then fixing chairs ?

[Nortonian]

Dear All,

 

Having only built locomotives for the past umpteen years, I am a bit behind in current techniques.

 

For my 2010 Diorama, I have started fixing the C&L plastic sleepers and I was wondering if I painted them first before fixing the chairs, is there likely to be a fixing problem, ie, between the chair, paint and sleeper ?.

Obviously I don`t want the chairs coming adrift because they have been stuck to the paint. The paint by the way will be an enamel mix, and the rail is steel which will be rusted with Gun Blue and the chairs colour matched afterwards. It will be much easier to paint the sleepers before fixing the chairs.

 

Also is there a Halfords Acrylic paint that could be used as the base colour and then touched up with grime and grease ?.

 

Any thoughts or experience on this anyone please ?.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

[Tim V]

Normally glueing plastic always assumes NO paint on the glued surfaces. So if you painted them first, to get any adhesion you'd have to scrape off the paint.

 

Might as well paint them after!

[Bernard Lamb]

The standard grey primer gives a pretty good basic colour. Or matt black might be better if you model NER or NBR.

Bernard

[Nortonian]

Thankyou Gentlemen, its what I feared. I was rather hoping I could spray paint the sleepers to the desired colour then apply the chairs.

Perhaps a little more experimentation.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

[brossard]

I would build the track first, then spray with red oxide primer and paint the timbers after. I have found this to be easier. Follow up with weathering to taste.

 

John

[craigwelsh]

Not being facetious here but after the experiences of the MMRS painting C and L sleepers you will be lucky to get the paint to stick to them anyway. After painting the whole of the sleepers on Slattocks junction we found that the sightest knock flaked the paint off. Basically this is the result of using a cheap and somewhat nasty plastic for the sleepers so our resident experts in the industry tell us.

That was however flexi track not the individual sleepers which may be a better quality plastic. The flexi may now be made of a better material than the oily stuff we had and discussed painting on the old forum.

 

On the plus side some new Exactoscale P4 track co panels I made up were put in last night meaning the layout is coming back on!

[Captain Kernow]

I would definitely, definitely not contemplate painting the sleepers before glueing the chairs on. I don't think that there is really any alternative to finishing the paint job off with a brush - by all means spray a base colour on, such as a primer, possibly followed by a 'track colour', but then the real work starts...

 

This is what I've done on previous layouts, and will do so again on 'Callow Lane' Engine Wood etc. - track weathering

[Fleetfoot Mike]

That was however flexi track not the individual sleepers which may be a better quality plastic. The flexi may now be made of a better material than the oily stuff we had and discussed painting on the old forum.

 

There's an immediate hunch here that says 'oily plastic? sounds like old Airfix soldiers!' Does a thin coat of PVA make the paint stick?

[jamie92208]

On my last layout we made a mix of sleeper colour out of acrylic paints with a bit of PVA mied in and then painted them on after testing etc. It took the shine off and looked a lot better.

 

Jamie

[Donw]

I think the Butanone used for C&L produces a plastic weld at least it softens the plastic.

Donw

[brossard]

I've started making C&L TimberTracks tracks. I have built 4 points. I prepainted the chairs with red oxide primer, ensuring that the chair bottoms are not painted. I also stained the wood a dark brown. The butanone welds the chairs into the grain of the wood. All that's left is to paint the rail a red oxide colour with a brush. For plain track I will prepaint the rail red oxide and do as above. To complete I will need to clean off small areas in order to solder the wire on, then touch up. Once installed I can weather. Should look cool.

 

John

[Donw]

I've started making C&L TimberTracks tracks. I have built 4 points. I prepainted the chairs with red oxide primer, ensuring that the chair bottoms are not painted. I also stained the wood a dark brown. The butanone welds the chairs into the grain of the wood. All that's left is to paint the rail a red oxide colour with a brush. For plain track I will prepaint the rail red oxide and do as above. To complete I will need to clean off small areas in order to solder the wire on, then touch up. Once installed I can weather. Should look cool.

 

John

 

There is a lot of difference between painting and staining and another whole difference between plastic and wooded sleepers ( paint would probably adhere better to the wood). I have lots of point kits with plastic sleepers ordered before the new wood stuff came out. However how do you match up the plain track to the points. It is a lot more effort to make all the plain track as well!

 

Donw

[brossard]

There is a lot of difference between painting and staining and another whole difference between plastic and wooded sleepers ( paint would probably adhere better to the wood). I have lots of point kits with plastic sleepers ordered before the new wood stuff came out. However how do you match up the plain track to the points. It is a lot more effort to make all the plain track as well!

 

Donw

I'm well aware of the differences. The point is that you can stain the wood any colour you want and still get the chairs to adhere while with plastic you need to assemble then paint. I haven't made any plain track yet and yes, of course, it is hard work to make plain track but I'm out to raise the bar for myself after building a layout with PECO Code 75. To join the track to the points I plan to solder etched fishplates to the rail ends, you could use PECO code 75 joiners I think. I have ABS fishplates for insulated railends. These are available from C&L and Exactoscale - I plan to try both. The layout I am currently building is for a friend and is quite small (11 ft), 00 gauge. For me its a test bed to see what works and what doesn't before starting my Opus Magnus in EM.

 

John

[Loxborough]

I've been using C&L plastic sleepers and chairs, acryllic (railmatch) paints for base colour and humbrol enamels for dry brush weathering, and a combination of MekPak (on stockrails and plain track) and Loctite 406 for crossings, checkrails and switches. With these materials I have been painting and weathering the sleepers before fixing the chairs down and they seem to hold pretty well.

 

Before starting I did some experiments, comparing the bond achieved between chair and sleeper with and without paint and found that the paint weakened the bond very little, if at all. In both cases I really needed to get the scalpel in under the chair to break the bond.

 

I find that I can get a much better weathering effect on the sleepers like this than I could ever hope to get painting them once the chairs are in place (having said that, I do go a little over the top with them; I paint with sleeper grime then drybrush black, light grey and gunmetal).

 

I will be sure to post notification if chairs start to come adrift!

 

George

[brian lewis]

Not being facetious here but after the experiences of the MMRS painting C and L sleepers you will be lucky to get the paint to stick to them anyway. After painting the whole of the sleepers on Slattocks junction we found that the sightest knock flaked the paint off. Basically this is the result of using a cheap and somewhat nasty plastic for the sleepers so our resident experts in the industry tell us.

 

 

I would not expect any warm comments from Andy Cooper. When he was Exhibition Manager of the Manchester show, he took offence when I stated that it was a family show, rather than a serious scale exhibition. (In fact I was suggesting that it had universal appeal, but Andy clearly did not share that view....).

 

A pity that he did not think to contact C+L for advice, before making such a silly remark. 'Cheap and nasty plastic'? The moulders use only the highest grade copolymer Acetal and a comment like that could well have them contacting their legal advisers..... Copolymer Acetal is horrendously expensive, but ensures controlled shrinkage on cooling and long term stability. As for the 'resident experts'......

 

I first exhibited a layout at an exhibition in 1968 and thus have a certain measure of experience of weathering. So perhaps rather than making ill informed comment, (heinafter known as Cooperisms?), I can offer some advice. My system is quite simple and is as follows:

 

1. Paint all sleepers with Humbrol 110.

2. Dry brush with Aluminium.

3. Paint rail and chairs with Dark Rust.

4. Dry brush rail and chairs with tiny amounts of BR Lining Orange - yes really!

5. Dry brush everything with Humbrol 53.

 

OK. I know this sounds exhausting, but it really does not take as long as you might think. The secret is to allow a day in between each stage to ensure the previous coat is hard dry. I have never had any experience of flaking.

 

If anyone needs more information, then by all means contact me via C+L.

 

Regards

 

Brian Lewis

 

Carrs - C+L Finescale.

[Donw]

I'm well aware of the differences. The point is that you can stain the wood any colour you want and still get the chairs to adhere while with plastic you need to assemble then paint. I haven't made any plain track yet and yes, of course, it is hard work to make plain track but I'm out to raise the bar for myself after building a layout with PECO Code 75. To join the track to the points I plan to solder etched fishplates to the rail ends, you could use PECO code 75 joiners I think. I have ABS fishplates for insulated railends. These are available from C&L and Exactoscale - I plan to try both. The layout I am currently building is for a friend and is quite small (11 ft), 00 gauge. For me its a test bed to see what works and what doesn't before starting my Opus Magnus in EM.

 

John

 

If you are planning to make the plain track as well I would go for the wood. It was just that I feel there is some loss of realism if you mix the two.

If you are planning to solder the fishplates you may want to consider soldering to one rail leaving the other free to slide especially if the layout is subject to a wide variation in temperature such as a loft. My experience with C+L is in 0 gauge (it wasn't available when I worked in EM) and I've never regretted it.

Donw

[brossard]

If you are planning to make the plain track as well I would go for the wood. It was just that I feel there is some loss of realism if you mix the two.

If you are planning to solder the fishplates you may want to consider soldering to one rail leaving the other free to slide especially if the layout is subject to a wide variation in temperature such as a loft. My experience with C+L is in 0 gauge (it wasn't available when I worked in EM) and I've never regretted it.

Donw

 

Donw, I have been laying the track. My original idea of soldering fishplates to rail, I found to be unworkable. The fishplates are too fiddly and I can't see them having the strength to hold the track together. I ended up using PECO code 75 joiners and gluing cosmetic chair halves after soldering (to one rail only). I agree that to mix wood and plastic bases would give a poor appearance so it will have be all plastic or all wood. Decision on that is pending.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Andy C]

It would appear that I have offended the owner of C and L - I have removed the offending post and would make it clear the comment was flippant and was not intended to be taken seriously and I am positive C+L's products are manufactured from materials suited to our hobby. There was never any intention to criticise C+L Finescale or their products and I apologize if my comments were construed in this way.

[Andy G]

I would not expect any warm comments from Andy Cooper. When he was Exhibition Manager of the Manchester show, he took offence when I stated that it was a family show, rather than a serious scale exhibition. (In fact I was suggesting that it had universal appeal, but Andy clearly did not share that view....).

 

A pity that he did not think to contact C+L for advice, before making such a silly remark. 'Cheap and nasty plastic'? The moulders use only the highest grade copolymer Acetal and a comment like that could well have them contacting their legal advisers..... Copolymer Acetal is horrendously expensive, but ensures controlled shrinkage on cooling and long term stability. As for the 'resident experts'......

 

I first exhibited a layout at an exhibition in 1968 and thus have a certain measure of experience of weathering. So perhaps rather than making ill informed comment, (heinafter known as Cooperisms?), I can offer some advice. My system is quite simple and is as follows:

 

1. Paint all sleepers with Humbrol 110.

2. Dry brush with Aluminium.

3. Paint rail and chairs with Dark Rust.

4. Dry brush rail and chairs with tiny amounts of BR Lining Orange - yes really!

5. Dry brush everything with Humbrol 53.

 

OK. I know this sounds exhausting, but it really does not take as long as you might think. The secret is to allow a day in between each stage to ensure the previous coat is hard dry. I have never had any experience of flaking.

 

If anyone needs more information, then by all means contact me via C+L.

 

Regards

 

Brian Lewis

 

Carrs - C+L Finescale.

 

Just to put matters straight the plain trackwork on Slattocks that we had the paint problems with was purchased from Brian's predecessor who it has been established was 'experimenting' with different plastics. Unfortunately the plastic in Slattock's track was polypropylene to which paint just does not stick. I think you did confirm this at the time Brian when one of our members contacted you to see if anybody else had found the problem. Bottom line is that the plastic in Slattock's trackwork was different to that in the current product. We haven't used plain track from Brian and therefore cannot comment on adhesion of paint to it.

 

Regards

Andy Goodman

MMRS P4 Group Leader

[3737]

I've bought a box of track from C&L in Doncaster in February and will continue to do so if needs be, because it's the best looking track I can buy.

Thanks to Brian for giving us the recipe to paint this track.

 

However this afternoon I've been busy to spray plastic primer on another box of C&L track, that I bought over 15 years ago, inspired by this thread.

I just want to make sure the paint will stick to this old track as well as to the newer track.

 

Leen.