Callander & Oban passenger engines in BR days

[Jim49]

When looking through some books on the C&O I noticed that the main express(?) passenger engine seemed to be Black 5s, more Black 5s and er.. . even more Black 5s. While there is nothing wrong with a Black 5, does anyone know if alternatives such as the B1 or Standard 5 were ever used on the line, especially the section between Dunblane and Callander itself?

 

I realise that Standard 4 tanks covered the local services and that a V2 sneaked into Callander at one time but I am curious if any of the other 4-6-0s were used.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Jim

[Blandford1969]

There were certaily occasions when standard 5s were used, I am not sure about B1s, I think so is the answer but cant remember where I have seen that.

 

73108 double headed with 73072 on an excursion to Glasgow in May 61

Type 2 diesels D6101 double headed with D6127 with the 12.05 Oban to Glasgow on the 12th Aug 1961

73120 inJuly 62 on 1 LMS compo and 3 Mk1s

73147 (with Capprotti valve gear) was seen on a Down frieght on 12th Aug 1961

 

I am sure there are more, but that's what I have managed to turn up from various books.

 

 

If you were willing to stretch the point you could always have a Clan, Castle and Class 55 ( the models available) sadly the 191 and 55 with a 918 boiler are not available

 

Kind regards

 

Duncan

[Jim49]

Thanks for the reply Duncan together with the details of Standard 5s that had visited. Like you, I believe that the Standards

were only occasional visitors and even then, probably only on excursions. The B1s will have to wait for another day until some

proof turns up but in the meantime Rule 1 applies (IMFR)

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim

[Blandford1969]

I still have a few more sources to go through, however at the moment I can't find a B1. You mentioned the standard 4 tanks, don't forget Fairburns operated to Callander as well.

 

Duncan

[Jim49]

Thanks again Duncan for your efforts. I have a stack of books of my own to go through but have been kept

too busy to check them for the last few nights but Thursday night should be my own, fingers crossed.

 

I did know about the Fairburns thanks to clips from a couple of DVDs (42271 & 73 I think) so will have to

renumber to one of them. Were both of them Perth locos being used on Stirlng to Callander locals?

 

Jim

[63C]

ON WEST HIGHLAND LINES

by Robert Robotham

 

The front cover of this book has a picture of a Standard Class 4MT 2-6-0 No 76001 double-heading with a Black 5 on 20th May 1960 and a picture of a B1 No 61278 double-heading another Black 5 on 15th May 1961. Page 36 has a picture of a Standard Class 5 No 73151 with Caprotti valve gear dated May 1960.

 

First 2 photos by Mike Mensing, third from Colour-Rail.

 

Hope this info is useful

JIM MAC

[Rannoch Moor]

Jim,

 

Whilst I don't have my refs to hand I agree that B1s were seen on the C and O during 60/61. Ivatt Class 2 and Std Class 2 were also used at Oban about this time but used mainly as yard/station pilots and of course on the Ballachulish Branch. I also have a phot in a book of a 4F on a freight - one of the Perth ones IIRC. Know thy're not 4-6-0s but they must have at least passed through the Dnblane to Callander section.

 

Gus

[Jim49]

Well done indeed 63C. That's two birds with one stone as apart from the B1, I can now add a Standard 4 2-6-0 to the list.

 

I did look at that book but couldn't find anything at first. Should have gone to Specsavers.

 

Thanks again.

 

Jim

[Jim49]

Thanks to you as well Gus (Rannoch Moor). I knew about the Ivatt 2-6-0s as I have one set aside to re-number into 46468 in unlined (dirty) black sometime.

This was bought from one Max Stafford of that ilk about a year ago but has remained untouched since. I will change the chimney Max, honest.

 

What I didn't realise was that the Standard equivalent also worked up there. Something new every day.

 

I have a photo of 4F 44524 plodding over Glenoglehead viaduct with what looks like a mixed train so that's another candidate for renumbering.

 

Thanks again for your trouble

 

Jim

[Strathyre]

^{Below is a list of locomotives and DMUs known to have worked on the Callander and Oban line from its opening in stages from 1870 to the truncation of the route in 1965. Locomotives used after that have not been included but would include classes 24, 25, 26, 29 and 37 as well as 55.}

^{Photographic evidence exists for the vast majority in the publications I have or have seen whereas the others that no photographs exist for, such as the Clan Goods (trialled along with the other two Highland classes but found to be less suitable) are well documented. As to the B1s, their appearances were more frequent than you may think, BR Past & Present - North est Scotland - has a shot of one stalling on a goods at the head of the Pass of Leny near St Bride's.}

 

^{Caledonian period;}

 

^{2-4-2 radial tank}

^{670 class 0-4-2 tender engine}

^{Brittain 179 class 4-4-0 Oban Bogie}

^{McIntosh 55 Class 4-6-0 Oban Bogie}

^{McIntosh 918 Class 4-6-0}

^{Pickersgill 191 Class 4-6-0 Oban bogie}

^{Drummond/Lambie/McIntosh 294 class Jumbo 0-6-0}

^{McIntosh & Lambie 19. 29 & 439 class 0-4-4 Tank}

^{104 class 0-4-4 Tank}

^{Drummond 262 class 0-4-2 Tank (Killin Pug)}

^{Lambie class 1 4-4-0 tank}

 

^{LMS period}

^{Brittain 179 class Oban Bogie (rebuilt)}

^{McIntosh 55 Class McIntosh 55 class rebuilt with 918 boiler (two locos)}

^{Drummond/Lambie/McIntosh 294 class Jumbo 0-6-0}

^{Pickersgill 944 Class 4-6-2 Wemyss Bay Tank}

^{Ex-Highland Drummond Castle Class 4-6-0}

^{Ex-Highland Cumming Clan Class 4-6-0}

^{Ex-Highland Cumming Clan Goods}

^{Stanier Class V 4-6-0}

^{McIntosh Ex-Caledonian 721 class Dunalastair 1 4-4-0}

^{McIntosh Ex-Caledonian 766 class Dunalastair 2 4-4-0}

^{McIntosh Ex-Caledonian 900 Class Dunalastair 3 4-4-0}

^{McIntosh Ex-Caledonian 139/140 class Dunalastair 4 4-4-0}

^{Pickersgill Ex-Caledonian 72 class 4-4-0}

^{McIntosh 812/652 Class 0-6-0}

^{Drummond rebuilt 66 Class 4-4-0}

^{McIntosh & Lambie 0-4-4 Tank}

^{Drummond 0-4-4 Tank}

^{LNER Ex-GER B12 4-6-0}

^{Lambie 4-4-0 tank}

 

 

^{BR period}

^{Stanier Class V 4-6-0}

^{McIntosh & Lambie 19, 29 & 439 class 0-4-4 Tank}

^{Pickersgill 300 Class 0-6-0}

^{LMS/MR 4F 0-6-0}

^{McIntosh Ex-Caledonian 140 class Dunalastair 4}

^{Pickersgill Ex-Caledonian 72 class 4-4-0}

^{Drummond/Lambie/McIntosh 294 class Jumbo 0-6-0}

^{Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 (numbers 46460 & 46468, used on Ballachuilish branch)}

^{Fairburn 4MT Tank 2-6-4}

^{BR Standard class 2 2-6-0 (78052, Ballachuilish again)}

^{BR Standard 2-6-4 Tank}

^{BR Standard 4MT 2-6-0}

^{BR Standard V 4-6-0}

^{BR Standard V 4-6-0 Capprotti}

^{Ex-LNER B1 4-6-0}

^{Ex-NBR Glen 4-4-0 (Stirling-Callander local, ‘Glen Lyon’)}

^{Ex- LNER K4 61995 ‘Cameron Of Lochiel’}

^{Ex-LMS Coronation 4-6-2 46248 ‘City of Leeds’ (Callander-Buchanan St local)}

^{(Also Royal Scot and other Coronations alleged to have run on same train, used by Stirling while on layover from Sutton Coldfield Car-Carrier)}

 

^Diesels/DMUs

^{Brush class 30 D5511}

^{NBL Class 21}

^{BRCW Class 27}

^{BR Class 25}

^{EE Class 20}

^{Brush Class 47 (Callander Local)}

^{Metropolitan Cammel Class 101}

^{Cravens Class 105}

^{Swindon 3-car Inter-City DMU}

^{Other DMUs also used on 6 lochs land cruise, normally Glasgow sets from Eastfield}

^{I have not included preserved locos in this list.}

^{The use of foreign locos on their layovers at Stirling is well documented in the Railway press of the early 1960s and the likelihood is that other classes also were used on the service, banned or otherwise. Unfortunately there have been no photographs forthcoming of these visits and the only mention appearing to actually confirm one being at Callander was City of Leeds, the others were on the same train on its arrival at Buchannan St and could conceivably have replaced another loco that had started the train at Callander at Stirling, although why that would happen is another thing.}

^{I have seen at least one other K4 (Loch Long I think) at Stirling but it could have come off there before the train proceeded to Callander.}

^{Some of the locos in the list only worked as far as Callander, Stirling MPD not being too fussy about what they used at times. Also, some of the locos in the LMS period worked ont othe C&O from Crief through St Fillans, mainly Dunalastair 4s, Pickersgill 72 class and LMS 4Fs.}

^{I apologise for the length of the post but I wanted to make it as comprehensive as possible and there were undoubtedly others not listed above.}

[Jim49]

Strathyre, thank you for your list of locos; it certainly is comprehensive and very useful.

City of Leeds on a stopper from Stirling was a total surprise as being so much larger & heavier

than the normal locos used on the line, I am amazed that any driver would have taken it, even with

official sanction.

 

One loco you do not mention was the V2 that turned up, again on a 2 coach local from Stirling. This

was 60818 and there is at least one picture of it in Bradford & Barton's book of the West Highland lines.

I also think I have seen a short video clip of the loco at Callander but can't remember which it is.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim

[Strathyre]

Hi Jim

 

there were actually at least two V2s that appeared at Callander, one is the one photographed by Stuart Sellar (60818) and the other was around the same time and is mentioned in the railway press, quoting the number. I'll have to seive through them but will do to find out which one it was. I seem to recall that it was a Dundee (Tay Bridge) loco.....Stirling South depot seem to have pretty much pleased themselves asto what they used, whatever was lying around really, or at least so it seems.

 

The entry about City of Leeds was pretty precise about it having been at Callander on the Glasgow train whereas the other entry,made a year or so before, only talked about the 'exotic' locos arriving at Glasgow on the Callander train, hence my reserving judgement on them.

[Jim49]

Thanks again Strathyre and, Iv'e just noticed, welcome to RMWeb. With the level of detail

you have supplied so far, I reckon you will be making many more posts before long.

 

Jim

[Guest Max Stafford]

60813 was also photographed at Callander in 1964. I can't remember where I saw the picture; possibly the Bradford Barton 'Steam in the Western Highlands' book.

 

Dave.

[Jim49]

Thanks Dave. I already have a Bachmann V2 renumbered as 60818 so it will stay as that.

Was 60813 the odd V2 with small deflectors beside a different chimney?

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim

[Jim49]

Just a quick update with details of locos I have turned up:-

 

B1 61396 slipping to a stand in the Pass of Leny with a goods train of sheeted mineral wagons. Undated

 

B1 61245 at Connel Ferry with a short goods train. Undated

 

B1 61278 at Loch Awe. May 1960

 

B1 61261 climbing up to Crianlarich Upper in June 1959 with Scottish regions TV train. Although this is about to return to Glasgow via the West Highland,

the outward journey would have been via the Callendar & Oban.

 

Std 5 73120 at Glen Cruitten. July 1962

 

Std 5 73147 at Craig Na Caillech. August 1961. Caprotti

 

Std 5 73150 at Oban. July 1962. Caprotti

 

Brush Class 4 D1856 (may be D1858) in Callendar on local service. undated

 

With some renumbering, I can now bring a bit of variety to the loco scene at Crofthead (Mill), once I get on and finish it, that is.

 

 

Thanks to everyone who replied with info, it's been a great help.

 

Jim

 

 

I've just re-read the above post and realise that it does sound a bit final. It's not meant to be so if anyone comes up with more info

about Standard 5s or B1s operating on the line, please fell free to come on and add them to the list.

 

Thanks again,

 

Jim 22/5/12

[Jim49]

Just a wee update. While reading my newly acquired copy of "Scottish Steam  1948-67" by Brian Dickson, 

I turned up a photo of Compound 40938 leaving Callander on 12/2/1955 on a Callander - Stirling local.

A bit out of my preferred time of 1965 but a rare visitor none the less. 

 

Jim

[Jim49]

Almost exactly a year since the last post on this topic but I think I've won a watch with this one.   Photo 739 of George  C. O'Hara's BR Steam in Scotland

shows Standard 4, 4-6-0, 75032 passing Stirling North Box with a Buchanan Street to Callander passenger turn on 16th July 1965. This seemed to have

been a running-in turn after overhaul at Cowlairs. I did know that a few Standard 4s had come up to Scotland for overhaul and had been tried on passenger

work to East Kilbride and Gourock but did not realise that one had sneaked out to Callander.

 

I may try buying a Lottery ticket tonight!

 

 

Jim

[Strathyre]

That's a real surprise and an absolute cracker - just noticed it now myself thanks to that post. I've seen photos of standard 4 4-6-0s at Gourock but never anywhere near Stirling, let alone on a Callander train.

 

Paul

[Jim49]

Now....here's the big question,  is it Black or Green?

 

Jim

[Strathyre]

I reckon black....

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6760447475/

 

 

Paul

[Jim49]

Can't argue with that! Thanks Paul, that's saved me a bit of detective work later tonight.

 

Jim

[pH]

That's a real surprise and an absolute cracker - just noticed it now myself thanks to that post. I've seen photos of standard 4 4-6-0s at Gourock but never anywhere near Stirling, let alone on a Callander train.

 

Paul

I've seen a picture of one running light engine somewhere between Larbert and Perth (sorry I can't remember more precisely). I know I told another RMwebber about it, and I've searched here for a post, but can't find one - I must have used a PM.

 

There was at least one green Standard 4 4-6-0 used in Scotland after a works visit - 75026, photographed by WAC Smith at Hawkhead in August 1965.

[Bill Jamieson]

A bit late in contributing, but in "Scottish Steam" by Keith Anderson and Brian Stephenson there's a W J V Anderson colour picture of B1 61278 being piloted by Black 5 45049 on an Oban - Glasgow train at Glenoglehead. It is captioned as having been taken in late spring 1961 so this is probably the same occasion as referred to by 63C. The same book has a colour shot of 73147 on an Oban to Glasgow train in the winter of 1961/62, while in ".....And Gone Forever" by Colin Gifford, 73149 is shown at Oban in July 1960 departing for Glasgow. I think it's a fair bet that the 65B Caprotti 5s were regulars on the line with all ten putting in an appearance at one time or another. 

 

Bill

[Jim49]

Thanks Bill

 

Jim