45125 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Prior to the E&G use, some of the Mk2s that went on to be included in the fleet took part in high-speed trials on the Eastern Region out of London. The remainder of the MK2 vehicles for the 2+27 E&G fleet were similarly converted to disc braked B4s with Girling Wheelslde Equipment fitted - hence the blowdown valve on the outside and all the associated pipework. When the E&G service was being tranferred over to the 47/7s, MK3s & 2f DBSOs, we sent of some of the early Mk2s for overhaul and removal of the disc braked B4 bogies for fitment under the 10 original DBSOs (9701 to 9710) and of course from there they've passed eventually to Network Rail where they are today. Though like the proverbial broom, they've had 40+ years of new heads & new shafts! No other coaching stock were fitted with these disc braked bogies and they remain much as they were used on the E&Gs all those years ago. Recognisable by the Girling WSP housing covers, blowdown valve and associate pipework/conduit on the right hand bogie - whichever side you view the vehicle from! Note the subsequent DBSO conversions 9711-9714 were not fitted with disc braked / WSP equipped bogies but retained the original B4s with tread brakes as built. There where some Mk2a TSOs fitted with Girling WSP on the Eastern. These keep this equipment right up to withdrawl. I had a list of which vehicles but it is not readily to hand, if memory serves they are some thing like 5290-94. Regards Al Taylor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 There where some Mk2a TSOs fitted with Girling WSP on the Eastern. These keep this equipment right up to withdrawl. I had a list of which vehicles but it is not readily to hand, if memory serves they are some thing like 5290-94. Regards Al Taylor Some of these were later transfers to the ScR Al to supplement the E&G if I'm not mistaken... This was part of the set used out of Hornsey on the high-speed brake trials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I seem to remember that the second Lab 5 track recording coach was an ex-E&G Mk2 because of the use of disc brakes. The reason was probably to maintain brake force, as these coaches had to have one unbraked axle for the instrumentation. This vehicles was scrapped due to rust, but I've an inkling that the bogies were transferred to the later AEA Technology/Delta Rail TrackLab, a Mk2 aircon which has run in the New Measurement Train. This may be the one mentioned by the poster above, as I think all the other NMT vehicles are Mk3s on BT10s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 There where some Mk2a TSOs fitted with Girling WSP on the Eastern. These keep this equipment right up to withdrawl. I had a list of which vehicles but it is not readily to hand, if memory serves they are some thing like 5290-94. Regards Al Taylor Al - found my list from 1970 for the ER Disc Braked stock. It was TSO's 5388 to 5394 and FKs 13474 & 13475 - they appear to have lost them in subsequent years - some perhaps were used in the DBSO conversions however by 1990 none were shown fitted - though that could be down to the accuracy of the list I have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Al - found my list from 1970 for the ER Disc Braked stock. It was TSO's 5388 to 5394 and FKs 13474 & 13475 - they appear to have lost them in subsequent years - This is really sad, but 5388 - 95 is the sequence I recall (dont ask me where from), and my '78 RCTS confirms Sc5391/92/95 as push pull fitted although it doesnt mention the brakes. re: the 'lost' website i was wittering on about, ... it was 'diesel-image-gallery' on fotopic, did a search and came up with: http://dieselimagegallery.com/ not up-and-running yet but if it contains the photos i think it does, it should be wonderful Good find K, that was a cracking site, definitely one to watch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The Eastern Region vehicles were used in late 1970 for E&G Service Brake Tests between Newcastle & Selby Jn. Easy seeing it was brake tests and not a normal service train by the absence of a brake vehicle as in between two class 25s (7593 & 7586) were six of the disc braked Mk2a's 5388, 5391, 5392, 5393, 5394 & 5395...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2012 I seem to remember that the second Lab 5 track recording coach was an ex-E&G Mk2 because of the use of disc brakes. The reason was probably to maintain brake force, as these coaches had to have one unbraked axle for the instrumentation. This vehicles was scrapped due to rust, but I've an inkling that the bogies were transferred to the later AEA Technology/Delta Rail TrackLab, a Mk2 aircon which has run in the New Measurement Train. This may be the one mentioned by the poster above, as I think all the other NMT vehicles are Mk3s on BT10s. Alas I can't find the vehicle numbers (beyond what is mentioned below) but during Phase 1 of its operational life it was originally proposed that the NMT would run with a formation including two Mk2 vehicles. These were described in the Test Submission as - High Speed Track Recording Coach, and Lab 5 (owned by AEA Technology) Both are described as having 'disc braked B5 bogies' which were equipped with Mk3 discs. It was intended - as has happened of course - that in what was known originally as Phase 2 these two vehicles would be replaced by Mk3 vehicles creating a wholly Mk3 formation. I've just gone through my electronic copy of the original Testing Submission (on which I did some ISA work) and can't find any more info on vehicle numbers although it's possible they're in some of the paperwork - especially as I got rather awkward over the matter of Brake Force and maximum speeds/stopping distances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 my mistake bob, must've remembered that they were used for trials and got mixed up with that. some in-service testing tales at: http://www.traintest...m/push-pull.htm (although the coaches were mk2/2a not 2a/2b) i've seen a pic of what is given as 47 258(D1938), with blue-star jumpers and control-air pipes - states that it was converted for evaluation in the 60s (motive power recognition 1 - Locos, CJ marsden/ian allan, 1981) a pic on brian daniels' flickr of FK Sc13415 showing the jumpers and pipes - don't think i've ever seen this before: http://www.flickr.co...157626969809416 also trying to remember another photosite, which had some cracking pics of the push-pulls while still fairly new - still shiny blue with orange conduits and, i'm sure, some pics of 25/37 on the back. used to be a fotopic, but whether it's on flickr or zenfolio/smugmug, i wish i knew! That looks like a very early mk2 as it has two opening vents in each window rather than the usual one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Alas I can't find the vehicle numbers (beyond what is mentioned below) but during Phase 1 of its operational life it was originally proposed that the NMT would run with a formation including two Mk2 vehicles. These were described in the Test Submission as - High Speed Track Recording Coach, and Lab 5 (owned by AEA Technology) Both are described as having 'disc braked B5 bogies' which were equipped with Mk3 discs. It was intended - as has happened of course - that in what was known originally as Phase 2 these two vehicles would be replaced by Mk3 vehicles creating a wholly Mk3 formation. I've just gone through my electronic copy of the original Testing Submission (on which I did some ISA work) and can't find any more info on vehicle numbers although it's possible they're in some of the paperwork - especially as I got rather awkward over the matter of Brake Force and maximum speeds/stopping distances. That's my recollection too, though I think as AEA had become mainly image led by that time somebody decided it should be called TrackLab instead of Lab 5. This was definitely the Mk2 aircon version as the earlier version had been scrapped by then. There is some info on departmentals.com including more recent photos, but your mention of B5 bogies suggests these may not be the B4s from E&G stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2012 1979 platform 5 coaching stock book (with a DBSO on cover!) has: TSO mk2, lot no. 30751, 1965-7 : 5126, 5130/4/7, 5142/4/6/7, 5152/3, 5160/9, 5176, 5182/7/9, 5190/2/5/7, 5202 mk2a, lot no. 30787, 1968 : 5391/2/5 BSO mk2, lot no. 30757, 1966 : 9387, 9395/7, 9400/3, 9411/2 FK mk2, lot no. 30749, 1964-5 : 13411/5/6, 13423/4/7, 13431 these coaches are all noted as being disc braked and blue-star push and pull fitted DBSO mk2f, lot no. 30861, 1974 only the first 3 are showing as converted, but in the BSO listings there are the others earmarked for conversion. only states air brakes and B4 bogies and "for push and pull systems using train lighting cable" the book states the listings are as at 18/06/1979 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 In the mid-late 80s there was one Mk 2f FO in Scotrail livery with disc brakes - 3284 IIRC. It was often located behind the DBSO in an otherwise Mk 3a set, instead of a Mk 3a CO. Was this another vehicle which had inherited a set of original E+G disc braked B4s? Does anybody know the history behind this unique vehicle - I wonder whether it was converted to disc braking to replace the Mk 3a FO (11004?) written off in the Polmont crash? 3284 ended up being converted to a Mk 2f buffet although I forget now if it was a 67xx lounge or a 12xx RFO - pretty sure it was converted back to clasp braking at that time. Some of the disc braked early mk 2 TSOs stayed on the ScR long enough to ge painted into ScotRail livery and they were usually formed into a 47/7 push-pull set with a DBSO. Does anybody know when the disc braked early Mk 2 FKs were withdrawn? - I am pretty sure they didn't make it into Scotrail livery, unless anybody knows better. Tom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Unfortunately Tom 3284 retained it's original clasp brakes - it wasn't converted to discs. I've a note somewhere of the reason we got it for the E&G service (as you say it was unique in being the only one used in the original E&G sets) but if I'm not mistaken it was before Polmont in 1984 and came to us and was used initially in blue & grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thanks for that Bob, I must have remembered wrongly about the disc brakes on 3284 - it was a long time ago now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2012 3284 became RFB 1255. harris mk2 book, list of mk2s p.150 has 3284 "fitted disc brakes, to RFO 1255 '91" - doesn't give any supposed dates for the discs and both RFO/RFB seems to be used i'm certainly not doubting bob, but it would seem that disc brake info is out there in more than one place! EDIT: book has withdrawal years for the FKs 13411 - 1985 LR, 13415/6 - '87 LR/SL, 13423 - '86 SL, 13424 - '87 SL, 13427 - '86 SL, 13431 - '82 SL LR=vic berry, leicester SL= stewarts lane TRSD no further use/allocation after withdrawal given Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thanks Keefer - doubt away , I'll need to have a rake about for some photo's of 3284 don't remember it being fitted when we first got it but I could be wrong of course! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Al - found my list from 1970 for the ER Disc Braked stock. It was TSO's 5388 to 5394 and FKs 13474 & 13475 - they appear to have lost them in subsequent years - some perhaps were used in the DBSO conversions however by 1990 none were shown fitted - though that could be down to the accuracy of the list I have. Thats the ones. 13474/5 (early 70s) were converted to vac brake, 5388 was still disc braked when at Heaton for Trans Pennine services, HST barrier 6347 (ex5395) also acquired disc brakes. Didn't some of the disc braked B4s end up under Tech Centre vehicles?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Didn't some of the disc braked B4s end up under Tech Centre vehicles?. See back up thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Going back to the OP - having had a look through some of the previous accidents at Queen St. for something which might have caused there to be a local instruction in respect of guards travelling in the rear, the only one that may have some bearing on it (if a local instruction did exist) was this one from 1928) - for the full report see here October 12th 1928 9.45 pm 1st Portion of the 9.45pm Glasgow to Edinburgh & London Came to a stand in the tunnel due to wheelspin and despite the assertions of the Driver and Fireman it appeared to have slid back. The rear of the train collided with an engine that was shunting an Alloa train from the carriage sidings to one of the platforms. 3 people were killed 1 at the scene and 2 later in hospital Colonel Trench found that the primary reason for the accident was the failure of the sanders on the locomotive to prevent slipping on the locomotive, and for the driver for failing to realise they were slipping backwards however responsibility also lay with the signalman who allowed the shunting of the Alloa train to take place in the rear of the departing train contrary to the local instructions in place. Colonel Trench Included in his recommendations that “Under the circumstances I suggest that instructions might be issued to guards of unassisted trains that, until they are clear of the upper end of the tunnel, they should be on the look-out and prepared to apply the brake immediately if they found themselves emerging backwards from the tunnel†Now whether this led to a local instruction being in place in 1971 that affected the E&Gs, I've no idea though it certainly has some merit! (As an aside these quite technical enquiry reports miss the effect on those involved. The only chap who died on the train (as opposed to later in hospital, was a 25 year old Mr Donaldson Gray had just shortly before left his wedding party with his young bride to go on his honeymoon. She was badly injured but appears to have survived despite losing a leg and a hand) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 13, 2012 not sure about it affecting the position of brake vans directly, but i think accidents like these led to the fitting of wall lights in the tunnels (another similar one was north queensferry in 1954). with a tunnel full of smoke and steam, if a loco stalled and started slipping, it was impossible to tell if you were going forwards or not. in the 1969 ScR sectional appendix there are a lot of instructions for trains leaving queen st. particularly max. loads for various locos, whether assistance is needed etc. for DMUs there is a list of how many engines should be running per no. of coaches. in the train loads section it states: "the last vehicle of all Up locomotive hauled trains, not assisted in rear, must have a brake compartment in which the guard must ride" - i suppose, tecnically that the P-Ps are not being 'assisted', the back loco is part of the train, so requires the brake van at the glasgow end. for DMUs it say that the last vehicle "must, as far as practicable, have a brake compt. in which the guard must ride". when this isn't possible, the vehicle should have a driving cab in which the guard rides and he must be ready to apply the brake as necessary. also says that Up trains which stop (or become stopped) in the tunnel after leading wheels pass signal CQ14 must not be taken back into the station and the guard must apply the handbrake. if the train cannot for whatever reason get moving again, assistance must be called for. any assisting locos not coupled to the train and once they've stopped assisting, must be driven so that they can stop clear of the train should it slow down or stop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I read that Queen Street accident report a couple of weeks back and it was certainly in my mind when reading earlier posts here. Tunnel wall lights were apparently in use at the time but the report concluded that the driver hadn't an inkling he was going backwards so didn't bother to look for them and the lights weren't bright enough to draw attention to themselves. There was a nasty accident on Beattock (I think) when a train stalled and an assisting engine was brought up behind but not coupled. Once on the move the front loco gained traction and pulled away only to drop back again. Assisting driver was killed I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 It was certainly one of those accidents that could have been a lot worse - just before the accident it had been passed by an inbound Edinburgh-Glasgow service - running 1 minute up! At Charfield the following day, 16 lives were lost. I think it would be safe to say that accident is the likely origin of that instruction. All we need is a later sectional appendix to see if anything was added. Thanks Keefer. Anyway here's some fine shots..... 5393 Edinburgh Princes St. Gardens 13.10.71 by George of Dufton, on Flickr 5386 Edinburgh Princes St. Gardens 13.10.71 by George of Dufton, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 13, 2012 the thing with this (and a lot of other) accidents is, there might be one thing which in itself, wouldn't have caused a problem - but that added to 1,2,3 or however many co-incident but independent actions leads to the inevitable nice pic links bob, though looks like the LH wiper on 5386 has given up already! possibly due to being lifted up due to turbulence when trailing? also noticed the headcodes - these were listed as 1Oxx, but they often just seem to be displayed as 1O00 whatever the service RE: the fate of the FKs. re-found a pic of 13423 with an 'E' prefix at snailwell, 4/1990 http://www.flickr.co...57625756801087/ so, re-allocated to the ER after P-P duties, notice also the 'G' coach sticker, so presumably used as part of a fairly fixed-formation service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 14, 2012 was reading the RO from august 1982 today and found mention of the 'spare' mk2 set: sunday 9th. may, 14.30 wav-QS 47 705 'lothian' + 5152 + 5153 + 5197 + 5146 + 13411 + DBSO 9704 diverted via gartcosh with reversal at cowlairs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Wonder what else was on that weekend? That old scratch set was used when all else failed. There were six full Mk3 sets for five diagrams ( and a sixth diagrammed maintenance/spare) for Edinburgh-Glasgow services only. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted June 14, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 14, 2012 bob, it doesn't say specifically - just that the mk2 set 'sees other uses', departed 'about' 14.30 and 'followed the diversion via gartcosh' end of the month it was every vehicle for itself for the papal visits to edinburgh and glasgow i'll have a look to see if anything else is mentioned for the E-G line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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