SquireBev Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I don't normally read the editorial sections in any magazine, but my other half this month picked up my copy of Railway Modeller and brought it to my attention. The complaint was that people are being too demanding of the manufacturers, in that they want a particular loco, but aren't prepared to put the effort in to change the name and number themselves. I'd never really considered it before, but the boyfriend suggested a pretty obvious solution. Why not release un-named and un-numbered models along with a decal sheet? I realise some manufacturers already offer large scale models in plain livery without numbers, but why has it never caught on in OO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 The un-numbered model idea comes up regularly on RMweb in the various Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol/... topics. Apparently some US manufacturers do it, but UK ones aren't interested. Whenever we get direct or indirect feedback from the manufacturers it's almost always along the lines of the vast majority of their customers just want to take them out of the box and play with them, whereas only a very small number of modellers would actually want to add their own numbers. I suspect they know their market well enough for this to be a fair summary. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I would like to think that people that do renumber stuff go to a bit more effort than just swapping the number. For example choosing your 47 has the right boiler port for the one you are doing down to only modelling one small handrail on one end of 86241 because thats what the prototype had. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Had a conversation on this subject today and apparently it has been done before...... and there are two issues... 1) people just don't bother putting the numbers on (and the unnumbered models resell for less than those who have bothered) 2) people want a specific number that isn't offered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Haven't Heljan already tried this? I'm not sure how well they sold though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2012 and then we 'd have complaints unless the manufacturer include an informmation sheet saying, "This model can be lettered for 3442 (10/1900 - 03/1905), 3443 (11/1900 - 12/1907) and 3445 (01/1901 - 07/1908) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Heljan have done two runs of unnumbered 47s and from what I saw, they sold quite well. Admittedly, leaving a black headcode on the Large Logo flavoured one restricted your options (ignoring the boiler exhaust point made by Jim which brought an extra challenge). Hornby did this in the 80s, again with 47s although they gave a handful of options on a sheet of transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2012 I'm with Jim S-W on this one. I have gone to the trouble of personalising most of my fleet based on memories of the prototypes (well my diesel fleet anyhow). That does mean some modelling to get livery/fittings right. It just jars me to see locos with factory fitted numbers running around. unfortunately I bought a number of the non-Serck fitted 47s a few years back to renumber to WR namers which was a bit of a mistake, many won't notice or care - but those "in the know" will. Dapol have of course just ventured into this area with their forthcoming Westerns being unnamed/numbered with etched plates provided. It may be off putting for many people to fit these, and time will tell if this is a good idea. I certainly agree though that greater details on inter class variation could be provided with the models, but as Buffalo points out will 95% of the buyers ever read them? Individualised models are my can, but I fully appreciate that others don't give a hoot about this. I hope this doesn't descend into another anti-nit-picking debate, but some of us like attention to detail others don't, that's democracy for you. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think a reluctance to renumber is partly down to the significant variations in the prototype, which is the point Jim made and supplemented by Neil's comments above. Recently, I have been seeking good prototype photographs of particular class 25 and 47 variants for a renumbering exercise and it's proved a real challenge getting sufficiently detailed views of different elevations. Even my own pictures are not much help for the same reason. The variation in the size and application of prototype numbers themselves provides another challenge, as I found out when renumbering my 85. Also, as I noted in that thread, the Fox pre-spaced numbers did not match the prototype pictures I had to hand. It won't stop me from having another go, but I can see that it would put some people off the idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I think you're bang on the money there Neil - imagine if HJ had issued a sheet with their 47s saying, "you can do these ones but not this one as it was missing a lamp bracket on the secondmans side at number two end" or some such. Be it a blessing or a curse, I have picked my 47s very carefully based on a fair amount of research to make sure the "shell fits" but outside of that class I am a little bit lost. The Dapol Western will be interesting but outside of my field so it'll be down to photo research, a couple of books and the wealth of knowledge on here. Equally many folks will be spared that by relying on the manufacturer to get it right. I wonder sometimes if that isn't the better option... You've got me thinking now. I have a HJ Western in blue as D1062. I've never really checked it over for the finer details. Wish me luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted June 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2012 Matt she was definitely blue - all westerns were- some with "Talisman clips" others without (!) D1062 just preserved Swindon works 1976, I remember her there in that state Jan 1975. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Thanks Neil, that's brilliant. I knew the blue bit was OK, it's things like headboard clips that could throw me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stehill1 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Evening all, Rail Exclusives have just commissioned 4 Class 47's from Vi Trains, 2 named and 2 un named/un numbered, in Rfd Distribuition Liveries. Regards Ste Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I think a reluctance to renumber is partly down to the significant variations in the prototype Also I think it is partly down to the fact that the increased quality of the finish of RTR models makes it harder to make modification that are to an equally good standard. For a novice, the thought of "ruining" a £100+ loco can be very daunting. Dapol have of course just ventured into this area with their forthcoming Westerns being unnamed/numbered with etched plates provided. It may be off putting for many people to fit these, and time will tell if this is a good idea. The Westerns are easier than some classes in that the number plates were cast meaning that transfers are not required, just the etched plates. Getting them positioned correctly and level will require some care and may be a case for using pva or copydex rather than something more permanent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Also I think it is partly down to the fact that the increased quality of the finish of RTR models makes it harder to make modification that are to an equally good standard. For a novice, the thought of "ruining" a £100+ loco can be very daunting. Hence the regular suggestions to gain experience on something cheap and cheerful first; said novices will never make progress whilst they're looking for an excuse not to try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Many folk have stayed with modelling since they were old enough to be left alone by dad in the layout room in charge of the H&M duette controller! Others myself included left the hobby drawn away by other things life had to offer only to return many years later buying a collection of the latest models with no older models to practice on so I can fully understand the nervousness some might feel. Of course there is nothing to stop anybody going out with £20-25 and buying an old Lima to practice on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Going back a few years, Peco did produce some versions of their N gauge Jubilee unnumbered, and included transfers for the (complete) numbers and nameplates for four different locos in the box. That's fine if you are buying new - you don't have to worry about all the stock of the most popular identity (which is of course the one you want) selling out. Trouble is, a big proportion of those that turn up second hand have the transfers so badly applied (at an angle, number on the tender etc) and you often find locos having an identity crisis with the name from one loco (it's usually 'Leander' for some reason) but the number from any other loco, and of course the rest of the transfer sheet has long since been lost... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Buy a cheap second hand loco and practice. I renumber my Hornby hsts as I have loads Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Buy a cheap second hand loco and practice. I renumber my Hornby hsts as I have loads Hi All, I agree with ESS1UK and Thane of Fife that a cheapie purchase to do with as you please (even if it is just a bodyshell from the dregs box at your local train fair) is a great way I build confidence. If you need to strip numbers / logos / etc., I have recommended Joe's Detail and Decal Remover over on my Little Didcot thread and I have used it both myself and with the comparative novices that I did the No. 4144 models with there and we have all found it really forgiving and easy to use. I pick it up from my local model emporium here: http://www.modeljunc...roducts_id=7317 As before, no connection other than being a satisfied customer. It is very gentle in its action and as a result really controllable. I usually attack the unfortunate victim, er, I mean bit of rolling stock with this stuff and a handful of cotton buds. Give it a few minutes to do its stuff and then GENTLY rub off. Repeat as required. Give it a go - you know you want to! Ah go on. Go on, go on. Go on, go on, go on, etc. Disengage Father Ted mode... All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Theres no excuse for not renumbering most GW / BR(WR) locos for obvious reasons. For simple change of cabside numbers a rub over the existing ones with nothing more than a wooden toothpick (and possibly a sponge magic mark cleaner once if smeared mess arises) works on current Hornby and Bachmann models to remove the existing number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Or... for the slighly more daring types... I generally remove numbers from Heljan/Bachmann diesels with a scalpel. Pick ever so gently and lightly at the edges of the numbers and, in time, they will come away. Take care not to scratch the paint. I have made 47612 47501 using this method and I am currently renumbering 47847 as erm... 47847. Don't ask why... Hornby locos do not seem as easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Theres no excuse for not renumbering most GW / BR(WR) locos for obvious reasons. For simple change of cabside numbers a rub over the existing ones with nothing more than a wooden toothpick (and possibly a sponge magic mark cleaner once if smeared mess arises) works on current Hornby and Bachmann models to remove the existing number. Hi Butler Henderson, The only trick with the GWR / very early BR WR ones is the buffer beam numbers but I agree that the GWR / Western Region is the easiest of the lot to do. However, printed numbers, etc. aren't always the same size or smaller that the etched ones so either your method or mine to get it off is a good idea. I usually leave a top corner and part of the top edge for lining up purposes and away you go. As with all of these things, the root of it all is confidence and a meticulous approach. Using either a non fogging cyano or even Pritt Stick (yes, it works really well!) to fix on the new plates is another top tip. I use Pritt stick as it allows for a great deal of fiddling, faffing, swearing and repositioning. The guys I did the 4144s with had no experience with this but, with a guiding hand, found it really easy to do. I think that the message that we are all trying to put out here is that it ain't rocket science... Perhaps there should be more in the way of the workshops / classes that are cropping up at shows and with clubs in recent times to build that confidence amongst more people? The wider the skills are passed around, the more enriched and exciting the hobby becomes and that will feed back into the supporting industry. That is why RMWEB is such a great resource. We all have stuff to learn from it. All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Perhaps the best approach would be to ask the manufacturers to apply numbering in a form which, whilst hardy enough for general use, might be easily removed without damaging the underlying paint surface. Current models, especially Hornby ones, seem to have diamond-hard numbering or lettering that can only be removed with some considerable effort, frequently leaving some damage or buffing of the main paint finish. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Perhaps the best approach would be to ask the manufacturers to apply numbering in a form which, whilst hardy enough for general use, might be easily removed without damaging the underlying paint surface. Current models, especially Hornby ones, seem to have diamond-hard numbering or lettering that can only be removed with some considerable effort, frequently leaving some damage or buffing of the main paint finish. JE Hi Belgian, The Decal remover stuff I mention above was used on Hornby locomotives and works a treat (even on multi layer stuff like GWR number plates) with a bit of patience to allow the stuff to do its thing. A case of having the right tools (or gunge in this case!) for the job... All the best, Castle Edit: any slight mismatch in finish can be sorted by a light coat of clear varnish (Matt, satin or gloss to taste) over the body. You should do this anyhow to seal the decals on as with handling, they can make a bid for freedom... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 http://www.modeljunc...roducts_id=7317 All the best, Castle I'm afraid the link doesn't work for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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