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Tony Wright

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12 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Looks to be 28 Cemflos or thereabouts in this train:

48706332371_e43efb4420_c.jpg92039_nrStevenage by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

In Townsend's  East Coast Pacifics at Work , the A2/3 working is mentioned , the way the running  is worded it may have been a one off trial run ., no other details theron.

Edited by micklner
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29 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

In Tony's list of exhibition operating, I would agree with all but point 8.

 

Other than that, I like to think that is how I would do things unless major problems prevented me. There has been the odd show where transport or other problems meant setting up on the morning of a show, which I always hated doing. I needed to know that all was well before I left the layout on the Friday night and would never truly relax and start enjoying myself until we had proved that it still worked on the Saturday morning, perhaps running through a sequence fully. 

 

One of the great joys in exhibiting, especially my recent experiences with Leighton Buzzard, have involved seeing somebody who is clearly showing an interest in how the layout works and giving them the opportunity to have a go. Under close supervision of course and if any sign of not wanting to run it properly is spotted, they are off straight away.

 

Apart from anything else, other viewers seemed to enjoy the explanations of what was happening and why as the new operator worked under full instruction. The pleasure and joy that it gave others was many times over worth the risk of an inexperienced operator making a mistake.

 

So if I ever exhibit a layout again, I won't be banishing any guest operators. If it encourages a newcomer to the hobby by making their visit to a show a bit more memorable, it is worthwhile.

 

If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy?   

'If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy? '  

 

Just a couple of questions please, Tony.....

 

How big is the terminus/shunting layout? How many different locos/trains does it have?

 

Over 30' long? Over 50 trains? 

 

Hmm. Despite roundy-roundies being perceived as being easy to operate, they only work successfully if the operation is slick, and EVERY operator (a minimum of four/five driving the ones I've mentioned) knows exactly what they're doing - setting multiple roads, operating signals, 'obeying' signals and anything else necessary to 'entertain' a viewing crowd - and it's a much bigger (and more critical?) crowd in front of a much bigger layout usually.  

 

No, I stand exactly with what I said with regard to point 8. A layout doesn't get invited to nearly 80 shows in 14/15 years (Stoke Summit) if it's operated by drivers who are learning! How can one operate permissive block successfully with 'just' analogue, having never done it on a layout before? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited by Tony Wright
to clarify a point
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24 minutes ago, micklner said:

In Tatlow's East Coast Pacifics at Work , the A2/3 working is mentioned , it may however the way it is worded a one off trial run ., no other details.

'In Tatlow's East Coast Pacifics at Work'

 

Tatlow's? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

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I thought Tony's list of exhibition essentials was pretty much spot on. I would add a couple more. Firstly, get the trains right, ie right loco on right stock in right formation. Secondly, if you must use 3-link couplings, see below.

 

I don't exhibit much but am occasionally to be found helping with operation on the P4 layout 'Harton Gill'. It usually works pretty well although uneven floors can be a problem, even with height-adjustable legs and packing. It's largely a shunting layout so there is lots of coupling and uncoupling using 3-link couplings. These can easily drive you mad but the way Graham Broad does them on Harton makes them more bearable than they otherwise would be as the bottom link is steel, so you use a small magnet to couple and uncouple. This is vastly quicker than the little hooks I have seen used on other layouts, which in my view do not stand up to exhibition use as they are too fiddly and by the time coupling has been achieved, the public will have moved on. Although small, Harton has the potential to have three trains moving at once, so there is usually something to keep the public interested. It has two different forms of electrification too.

 

40196390252_29b5676257_c.jpg20180210_163853_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

40196389862_13119e0e74_c.jpg20180211_095102_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I didn't build any of it. It's way beyond my standard. I just help move and operate it.

 

Edit: following numerous requests, there is even a shopping trolley in the stream, but I don't have a photo to hand.

Edited by robertcwp
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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Looks to be 28 Cemflos or thereabouts in this train:

48706332371_e43efb4420_c.jpg92039_nrStevenage by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a photo of A2/3 60518 Tehran on what I think is a cement train at Knebworth. The wagons are not like those in your photo, they are what I think is termed a Presflow.

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I think I may have found a good primer.

 

Tamiya fine surface primer, the car ones are too lumpy, I had a HobbyCraft voucher so primer and No11 knife blades.

 

Sprayed 4 aircons in it and it appears to cover plastic, brass and whatever the frames are (stainless steel?) pretty well.

 

Will have to wait until spring for blue and grey

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

'If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy? '  

 

Just a couple of questions please, Tony.....

 

How big is the terminus/shunting layout? How many different locos/trains does it have?

 

Over 30' long? Over 50 trains? 

 

Hmm. Despite roundy-roundies being perceived as being easy to operate, they only work successfully if the operation is slick, and EVERY operator (a minimum of four/five driving the ones I've mentioned) knows exactly what they're doing - setting multiple roads, operating signals, 'obeying' signals and anything else necessary to 'entertain' a viewing crowd - and it's a much bigger (and more critical?) crowd in front of a much bigger layout usually.  

 

No, I stand exactly with what I said with regard to point 8. A layout doesn't get invited to nearly 80 shows in 14/15 years (Stoke Summit) if it's operated by drivers who are learning! How can one operate permissive block successfully with 'just' analogue, having never done it on a layout before? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

You don't need to ask how big Leighton Buzzard is, do you Tony?

 

All I am saying is that if a novice can manage a layout that has things like slow running, gently easing up to vehicles without bashing them about, changing direction, coupling and uncoupling, remarshalling, adding and removing vehicles, working block bells and instruments as well as points and signals, then they should be able to manage on a layout where each train just does a circuit on a continuous run. The latter should be easier if the vast majority of trains just go round. You learn how to set a route in the fiddle yard, a couple of signals and you are away!

 

So although the physical size of the layout may be smaller and there may be fewer and shorter trains, there is actually more to physically do operating Leighton Buzzard than there is to Stoke Summit or Little Bytham. There are more actions for an operator to carry out for each train that runs.

 

I have operated Gresley Beat, Dunwich, Retford and various other layouts where trains went mostly round in a circuit. They are a doddle and much easier compared to one where all the moves are into and out of a terminus with all the associated station movements. The length of the trains and the number are irrelevant. 

 

As for running two trains on one track, Peter Denny cracked that before Stoke Summit was thought of. We don't usually do it when we have visitors as you need skills akin to playing a church organ but when a train leaves Buckingham, you depart it on the Grandborough controller and switch the platform line to the Buckingham controller (to release the loco that brought the train in up to the platform starter) as soon as the departing train loco is clear of the platform end. It requires putting signals back and pulling other levers at the same time as working the controller and doing these things when trains are moving, so we tend to keep it for when we have a proper running session with fully trained up operators.

 

I am sorry that you feel I was wrong to give people the chance to operate Leighton Buzzard at shows. It made those who had a go happy and seeing their pleasure made me happy too. Some of them turned out to be very good operators too. Seeing grown modellers shed tears of joy at being able to drive those famous old models was worth every moment.

 

There may even be one or two RMWebbers who had a go. Hopefully they were happy enough that I don't follow all your rules.      

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Robert,

 

I have a photo of A2/3 60518 Tehran on what I think is a cement train at Knebworth. The wagons are not like those in your photo, they are what I think is termed a Presflow.

Presflo cement wagons are outside framed closed hoppers with top loading hatches and pipe unloading under air pressure, the origin of the name.  

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3 hours ago, MJI said:

I think I may have found a good primer.

 

Tamiya fine surface primer, the car ones are too lumpy, I had a HobbyCraft voucher so primer and No11 knife blades.

 

Sprayed 4 aircons in it and it appears to cover plastic, brass and whatever the frames are (stainless steel?) pretty well.

 

Will have to wait until spring for blue and grey

 

 

If you are searching for a fine primer, I can also recommend trying the Gunze brand "Mr.Surfacer" range.  It comes in grades of 500, 1000 and 1200 that emulate wet and dry paper, and is sold in both grey, and white I believe.

 

I'm not a fan of aerosol cans for hobby work, but I make an exception for this product - it really does create a great base to paint on top of. 

 

There's even a Mr.Resin if you're dealing with that base material.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

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6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

As for running two trains on one track, Peter Denny cracked that before Stoke Summit was thought of. We don't usually do it when we have visitors as you need skills akin to playing a church organ but when a train leaves Buckingham, you depart it on the Grandborough controller and switch the platform line to the Buckingham controller (to release the loco that brought the train in up to the platform starter) as soon as the departing train loco is clear of the platform end. It requires putting signals back and pulling other levers at the same time as working the controller and doing these things when trains are moving, so we tend to keep it for when we have a proper running session with fully trained up operators.

Ahhh .... the joys of Protocab and battery operation. It allows me to do all of this with 1/10th of the skill and I am driving the actual train rather than the track!

 

I would love to have a go on Buckingham, and get to know how such complex manoeuvres are achieved ... but equally there is something viscerally satisfying about actually driving the locomotive with no impact on any other locomotive (in principle).

Edited by Lecorbusier
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1 hour ago, Lecorbusier said:

Ahhh .... the joys of Protocab and battery operation. It allows me to do all of this with 1/10th of the skill and I am driving the actual train rather than the track!

 

I would love to have a go on Buckingham, and get to know how such complex manoeuvres are achieved ... but equally there is something viscerally satisfying about actually driving the locomotive with no impact on any other locomotive (in principle).

Whisper it quietly but just like DCC - Lights blue touch paper and stands back!

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11 hours ago, micklner said:

In Tatlow's East Coast Pacifics at Work , the A2/3 working is mentioned , it may however the way it is worded a one off trial run ., no other details.

There is a good discussion of this issue on this thread.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107721-cemflos-cliffe-uddingston-flow-silver-queens/&do=findComment&comment=3626773

 

I’ve done a fair bit of puzzling to work out what is right to run on my layout and decided that the A2/3 was either a one-off or a rarity. As has been stated, the ECML cement traffic really started in 1960 with a Purfleet to Cambuslang and Leith service with Presflo wagons. This changed to Cliffe-Uddinsgton in August 1962 and simultaneously changed to Cemflo wagons. Townsend  (p154) is talking about the Cliffe-Uddingston train (I.e. Cemflos) and states that an A2/3 was sent out one day and was reported as the only loco to master the job. It’s easy to read the implication that it became a regular, but it doesn’t say so, and most of the photos I’ve seen are 9Fs.

 

My conclusion (but I don’t claim 100% historical rigour in this) is:

pre 1960: no regular block train of Presflo or Cemflo wagons

1960-61: Regular block train of Preflos starting at 15 wagons and growing normally hauled by 9Fs

1961 onwards: Regular block train of c.28 Cemflos hauled a pair of 33s to North London and then a 9F onwards later changing to a pair of 33s as far as York and later still a single 33. At some point it was diverted via the GN/GE joint line. A2/3s substituted on this train at least once and maybe more often.

 

I hope this is useful.

 

Andy

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Sorry, I’ve just realised that I’ve almost repeated Kevin Roche’s post on cement trains from a couple of pages ago. But I do recommend that link for anyone interested in the subject.

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16 hours ago, micklner said:

Tony

             Not a problem for Hornby if they had chosen the other Locos to make in the first place, too late now anyway. Hopefully they will be a success , I see little reason why they would'nt , at the moment.

 

cheers

 

Mick

 

 

Mick,

 

I think the point is that with minimal changes, Hornby can make 19 locos with this tooling as strip away the smoke deflectors and tender and there’s not much difference between an A2/3 and a reboilered A2/2. To do the early A2/2 tooling would limit them to 6 engines in LNER days and only two in the most popular Transition era. 

 

Andy

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3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Mick,

 

I think the point is that with minimal changes, Hornby can make 19 locos with this tooling as strip away the smoke deflectors and tender and there’s not much difference between an A2/3 and a reboilered A2/2. To do the early A2/2 tooling would limit them to 6 engines in LNER days and only two in the most popular Transition era. 

 

Andy

19 engines really ? Are you saying , the A2/2 and A2/3 are being made with the same Boiler by Hornby ? I havent checked any details at the moment .

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11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

In Tony's list of exhibition operating, I would agree with all but point 8.

 

Other than that, I like to think that is how I would do things unless major problems prevented me. There has been the odd show where transport or other problems meant setting up on the morning of a show, which I always hated doing. I needed to know that all was well before I left the layout on the Friday night and would never truly relax and start enjoying myself until we had proved that it still worked on the Saturday morning, perhaps running through a sequence fully. 

 

One of the great joys in exhibiting, especially my recent experiences with Leighton Buzzard, have involved seeing somebody who is clearly showing an interest in how the layout works and giving them the opportunity to have a go. Under close supervision of course and if any sign of not wanting to run it properly is spotted, they are off straight away.

 

Apart from anything else, other viewers seemed to enjoy the explanations of what was happening and why as the new operator worked under full instruction. The pleasure and joy that it gave others was many times over worth the risk of an inexperienced operator making a mistake.

 

So if I ever exhibit a layout again, I won't be banishing any guest operators. If it encourages a newcomer to the hobby by making their visit to a show a bit more memorable, it is worthwhile.

 

If we could do it on a terminus/shunting layout, how much easier should it be on a "turn controller on/turn controller off" roundy roundy?   

I fully agree with Tony. My exhibition experience is pretty limited and only at local shows, but I have found it very rewarding to invite enthusiastic youngsters behind to have a go at the controls - sometimes just to sound the whistle, but some have stayed operating for an hour or more under supervision and have done a better job than some of my club members! We intend developing the layout so that we ask the public to operate one of the signals to keep them involved.

 

I also know the delight from my own kids when they have been asked to operate a layout for a few minutes. It helped keep them interested in the hobby (although sadly now lapsed).

 

I think this depends on the type of exhibition. For the more ‘serious’ affairs such as Stevenage or Railex, then it’s probably less appropriate, but for local shows, then I think it’s a great way of engaging with our future hobbyists.

 

Andy

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2 hours ago, Lecorbusier said:

Ahhh .... the joys of Protocab and battery operation. It allows me to do all of this with 1/10th of the skill and I am driving the actual train rather than the track!

 

I would love to have a go on Buckingham, and get to know how such complex manoeuvres are achieved ... but equally there is something viscerally satisfying about actually driving the locomotive with no impact on any other locomotive (in principle).

 

I would hazard a guess that the total number of buttons and switches that you press to do the move on Buckingham will be smaller than the total number of buttons you need to press on any DCC or Radio Control system. The only difficulty is in pulling/pushing 3 levers quickly and turning a controller. When you have a novice at the controls, the departing train is well away before the trapped loco moves, which does away with the "following the departing train along the platform" aspect.

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10 minutes ago, micklner said:

19 engines really ? Are you saying , the A2/2 and A2/3 are being made with the same Boiler by Hornby ? I havent checked any details at the moment .

Yes. That’s my understanding. No doubt someone will correct me if I’ve misunderstood but as I understand it a d.117 and d.118 boiler are essentially the same externally apart from things like dome position which can be added to the basic moulding.

 

It wasn’t until I saw these two photos that I twigged.

 

AD5F492D-425D-439F-A8C7-F6A31726FAF4.jpeg.a4593e25a9e3025075dc2430fb188f82.jpegF863C369-8EDA-45E7-AF2E-42A1F3C95E7A.jpeg.39c675f354cce74112fb0249344a39f8.jpeg

 

 

Edited by thegreenhowards
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Under close supervision of course and if any sign of not wanting to run it properly is spotted, they are off straight away.

 

Good job you'd wandered off when I pulled the block instrument off the front of it at Manchester, then!

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Presflo cement wagons are outside framed closed hoppers with top loading hatches and pipe unloading under air pressure, the origin of the name.  

 

Thanks Johnster,

 

Having checked with a couple of sources, they are Presflo cement wagons. The photo is dated Knebworth 1961, the loco is A2/3 60518 Tehran.

 

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5 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I fully agree with Tony. My exhibition experience is pretty limited and only at local shows, but I have found it very rewarding to invite enthusiastic youngsters behind to have a go at the controls - sometimes just to sound the whistle, but some have stayed operating for an hour or more under supervision and have done a better job than some of my club members! We intend developing the layout so that we ask the public to operate one of the signals to keep them involved.

 

I also know the delight from my own kids when they have been asked to operate a layout for a few minutes. It helped keep them interested in the hobby (although sadly now lapsed).

 

I think this depends on the type of exhibition. For the more ‘serious’ affairs such as Stevenage or Railex, then it’s probably less appropriate, but for local shows, then I think it’s a great way of engaging with our future hobbyists.

 

Andy

 

The design of the layout makes a difference too. On Leighton Buzzard (and on some of my own exhibition layouts) an operating position on the public side of the layout allows people to watch for a while, see what goes on and then they can get to the controls easily, depending on the type of barriers.

 

As an operator, I enjoy being close to the viewers and being able to engage in conversation with them. Many layouts have the operators almost hidden away behind high backscenes or so far away from the public that attracting attention to ask a question is difficult. I went to one show once and they had a particular loco on the layout that I wanted to know about. After 15 minutes of waiting for an opportunity to speak to somebody, I gave up and walked away.

 

I have always believed that exhibitions are the best place to encourage and nurture interest in the hobby. When I was young, it was people who let me "have a go" who fired my interest.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Yes. That’s my understanding. No doubt someone will correct me if I’ve misunderstood but as I understand it a d.117 and d.118 boiler are essentially the same externally apart from things like dome position which can be added to the basic moulding.

 

It wasn’t until I saw these two photos that I twigged.

 

AD5F492D-425D-439F-A8C7-F6A31726FAF4.jpeg.a4593e25a9e3025075dc2430fb188f82.jpegF863C369-8EDA-45E7-AF2E-42A1F3C95E7A.jpeg.39c675f354cce74112fb0249344a39f8.jpeg

 

 

 

4 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Yes. That’s my understanding. No doubt someone will correct me if I’ve misunderstood but as I understand it a d.117 and d.118 boiler are essentially the same externally apart from things like dome position which can be added to the basic moulding.

 

It wasn’t until I saw these two photos that I twigged.

 

AD5F492D-425D-439F-A8C7-F6A31726FAF4.jpeg.a4593e25a9e3025075dc2430fb188f82.jpegF863C369-8EDA-45E7-AF2E-42A1F3C95E7A.jpeg.39c675f354cce74112fb0249344a39f8.jpeg

 

 

It doesnt show very well in the above photos.             Edit. It looks like the same model in both photos to me?

 

A2/2 wedge shape Cab as the A4 , when the Boilers were changed on four of the six, the front of the wedge was cut back.

 

A2/3 Straight front Cab, therefore the Boilers are totally different shape at the firebox end. That is without any other detail like washout plugs etc.

Edited by micklner
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12 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I would hazard a guess that the total number of buttons and switches that you press to do the move on Buckingham will be smaller than the total number of buttons you need to press on any DCC or Radio Control system. The only difficulty is in pulling/pushing 3 levers quickly and turning a controller. When you have a novice at the controls, the departing train is well away before the trapped loco moves, which does away with the "following the departing train along the platform" aspect.

I couldn't comment about DCC, my knowledge of how simple or complex DC is for such manoeuvres is pretty much non existent - though I did understand from your original post that you were arguing that it was  complex and so needed skilled operators ..... but then this perhaps has more to do with the operations themselves and not the operating system? On the protocab (radio control) front, I am very much at the start so again it is difficult for me to comment .... with the new controller you have a digital screen display with the names of the various locos (as many as you want) and you simply press to select the loco you want (on my controller I am currently limited to nine locos) .... so I don't think there are many buttons to press. The nice thing perhaps is that you can have a separate driver for each train running who is solely responsible for that train. If you then have good signalmen as well it seems to me that you have a fair representation of the real thing going on?

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