Rabs Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Printed for ~50p of materials and electricity on a printer costing ~£1500. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 What machine is this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Like it or lump it - THIS is the future, this technology will get better, cheaper and more easily accessible to all very quickly. It may even get "design cleverer" than Hornby and print 3D handrails !!. Hornby and Bachman take note - you will only have a market for mechanisms and bogies / wagon chassis soon !!!!!!!!!! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Very nice, is that using a home built reprap machine? Had one of these going on my course, was very impressive, but did worry me when the machine was being used to create copies of itself and started to refuse human commands...I'm sure that's the start of the film terminator or similar... David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 It's been printed on my sparkly new B9 creator, which uses a dlp projector and photo-curing resin. Reprap type machines can't even get close to this level of detail (believe me, I've tried). Railway models coming soon! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Impressive, and an excellent investment. Getting a head start in this industry is certainly worthwhile - it is going to be huge... David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marbelup Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 It will be very interesting to see how the B9 Creator copes with actual model railway parts. It will probably be quite good for parts which are mostly rectangular. I suspect curved or angled parts will exhibit stepping in all 3 axes, as the resolution in the X and Y axes is limited to 100 microns (or 50 depending for small part size) by the fixed pixel size of the the DLP light source. In comparison, most 3D printing machines have considerably finer resolution in the X and Y axes (compared to the Z axis) and the X and Y axes are controlled by stepper motor drives and only the Z axis is limited by the layer resolution of the particular 3D printing process. This means that stepping is most obvious on horizontal surfaces compared to vertical surfaces (with reference to the build orientation, of course). The Form 1 printer also looks promising, although it has a limitation in that the spot size of the laser is 300 microns, so it can't produce very fine details. But the layer thickness can be as low as 25 microns so the surface smoothness is potentially very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 The B9 works very well with layer thicknesses of 25um, and can go lower (but I've not tried that yet). In my experience most professional 3d printers are currently working at 20um resolution or larger. The B9 is printing at 50um at the moment, with scope to go to 25um by installing an HD projector instead of the 1024x768 that it currently has. At 50um I have enough build area to print N or OO rolling stock mounted on end. So yes, it is slightly lower than professional kit, but it is also 1/10th the cost. My first impression is that it is better than Shapeways FUD. I've just finished printing a sphere to test the stepping becuase, I agree, this will be the limiting factor for many model railway items - I'll post the results soon. However, the Eiffel Tower has lots of angled and curved parts - no stepping visible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Looks fantastic!! I look forward to seeing more. It will be interesting to see how the printer copes with things like wagons that have flat sides with "appendages" (like strapping and rivets). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Daft question time: Is the resin flexible? I was looking at a lot of printers a while back and recall discounting one based on the resin being flexible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Bit like these miniature "Strandbeests" as seen on QI http://images1.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/674x501_247116_127092_1338413387.jpg Perhaps 3D printing could produce some new gangway assemblies for the Hornby Vep. Ones with the door included and in the right place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 It will probably be quite good for parts which are mostly rectangular. I suspect curved or angled parts will exhibit stepping in all 3 axes, as the resolution in the X and Y axes is limited to 100 microns (or 50 depending for small part size) by the fixed pixel size of the the DLP light source. Daft question time: Is the resin flexible? I was looking at a lot of printers a while back and recall discounting one based on the resin being flexible. Yes, it is quite flexible but it does get a bit harder over time as it fully cures. I'm undecided if that is necessarily a bad thing though, the material is much more robust than FUD for example. Also, in small scales with some bracing I think that it would be tolerable. I think you may be thinking of the demo video where the creator shows bending a similar Eiffel tower model (but 2x the size). Bear in mind that this model is made of very thin elements - the total cross sectional area in that demo is ~1mm^2. Even in a lattice with a high second moment of area it isn't surprising that it's pretty bendy. One of the models I've done is more substantial, and it doesn't feel too bad. I was clearly thinking along the same lines as you guys, stepping and material flexibility were (and still are until I've done some more tests) my main concerns. However, I was so encouraged by the level of detail I saw others getting that I thought it worth the risk. The B9 seems to be holding its value at the moment, so if I find out that it doesn't do what I want I can probably sell it on at a minimal loss. If anyone would like me to do a test print then do get in touch, I'm happy to try some things if you don't mind paying the postage. I'm working on some GWR locos but it will be a while before I finish the CAD and I'm keen to get printing in the meantime. I'll need an ASCII .stl file of your model (alternatively, Solidworks files would also be ok). I'd be particularly interested in printing anything that people have had done in Shapeways FUD or iMaterialise Prime Grey, as I would love to see a side by side comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I'm working on some GWR locos but it will be a while before I finish the CAD and I'm keen to get printing in the meantime. If you are working on anything GWR and N gauge then I will keep a definite eye on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 If anyone would like me to do a test print then do get in touch, I'm happy to try some things if you don't mind paying the postage. I'm working on some GWR locos but it will be a while before I finish the CAD and I'm keen to get printing in the meantime. I'll need an ASCII .stl file of your model (alternatively, Solidworks files would also be ok). I'd be particularly interested in printing anything that people have had done in Shapeways FUD or iMaterialise Prime Grey, as I would love to see a side by side comparison. Can you PM me your email address and I'll get some files to you tomorrow or Wednesday. I have a re-hashed model of the GWR beetle that I had printed in FUD a year or so to produce a later variant. The sides are almost indistinguishably different and the ends very similar (different bracing). Of course I'd be happy to cover your costs, plus postage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon br blue Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 This looks great. What is the minimum wall thickness you have been able to print? Would be good to see a N gauge model printed so that you could compare the resolution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5D_Stoke Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 If anyone would like me to do a test print then do get in touch, I'm happy to try some things if you don't mind paying the postage. I'll need an ASCII .stl file of your model (alternatively, Solidworks files would also be ok). I'd be particularly interested in printing anything that people have had done in Shapeways FUD or iMaterialise Prime Grey, as I would love to see a side by side comparison. It is really encouraging to see what can be done on a home machine, Rabs. I'll be happy to mail you an STL ASCII file of one of my brake van models listed on http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64692-nsr-brakevan-in-4mm-scale-by-3d-printing/ so you can compare with the close-up photos of Shapeways FUD and imaterialise PG prints that I've uploaded on RMweb before Christmas. Can you let me know your e-mail address off list, to foxfield.stocklistATntlworld.com and I can send you a file of either the 10 ton Brake van or the Ballast Brake? Fantastic work! Mark (5D_Stoke) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marbelup Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Rabs What is the situation when using a machine like this re supporting structures? Are there limits for overhangs, etc. above which supports are required? (i.materialise quote 2 mm max overhangs, for instance, if the angle is flatter than 30 degrees) Do you have to generate supports manually and include in the STL file? My recent diesel loco body in S scale, for instance, had supports at approx 3 mm spacings on the inside to support the curved roof. These were generated by i.materialise so I didn't have to worry about them, but it wouldn't be that hard to include the support structure in the design file once the parameters are known. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 This looks great. What is the minimum wall thickness you have been able to print? Would be good to see a N gauge model printed so that you could compare the resolution. Good question and one of the top ones in my mind - I'm about to do some more controlled experiments to test the minimum sizes for walls, struts and embossed/embedded features. What is the situation when using a machine like this re supporting structures? The Eiffel tower I printed didn't need any because it is inherently self supporting. However, in general you do. These are typically 2-3mm thick columns which come to a 0.5mm point where they contact the model. You then snip them off the finished model. This means that I will be trying to put them on non-visible faces (or flat faces where it can be smoothed off completely) Are there limits for overhangs, etc. above which supports are required? (i.materialise quote 2 mm max overhangs, for instance, if the angle is flatter than 30 degrees) Yes, but as I'm just getting started I don't have a definitive answer on what works yet. The anecdotal experience I have so far is that shapes with overhangs <45 degrees seem to work well, above that then some support is probably necessary. Do you have to generate supports manually and include in the STL file? There's nothing to automatically add supports yet. The creator says that it is a feature that he plans to add soon. For now they have to be manually added, either in the CAD or in the print software. Adding them in the CAD generally gives better results as you can more easily optimise the placement and shape of the supports. It's still early days for me - I've only done 4 prints so far, as it is slow to print. The Eiffel tower took about 5 hours to print. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marbelup Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Thanks Rabs I agree, it could be better to create the supports manually so they could be placed where they won't be visible, or so they can be easily smoothed off. I am currently working on the design for a diesel bogie (cosmetic only) and the horizontal brake levers will need supports so I may try building them into the 3D model to ensure optimum placemen, even though I will be using a commercial print service. PS I notice your layout is/will be automated. I use CTI control modules and software for my layout for signalling and (optionally) automatic running. See http://members.iinet.net/~judithandrichard/marbelup/signals.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 I love the feel of your layout, very bleak outback. I particularly like the trestle bridge. I'm a MERG-CBUS + JMRI man myself, as an electronics engineer it gives a very good balance of low cost DIY construction, with someone else having done most of the programming and debugging heavy lifting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marbelup Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Hello again Rabs If you are looking for test files, I have a file for the nose of my diesel loco body. The part is about 25 x 35 x 40 mm. I have had test prints done of the same part from Shapeways (FUD and FD), i.materialise (Prime Grey) and Sculpteo (Black Detail Resin). Also, some fellow modellers with home printers also did some prints for me on an UP! printer, and a Makerbot (Original). I am happy to pay the postage to Australia if you are willing to do a test print. My brother also has done some designs for small detail parts for freight wagons, and has had some good quality prints back from a small company in New Zealand (Mark4Design). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 So, what have I been up to in my first week with my 3d printer? Well, it started with a bit of this: That's one of several test prints that I designed to help me find out things like the minimum wall thickness and feature size of my printer. There's no published data yet as I'm one of the first users and I appear to be the only one who is trying to scientifically investigate the printer's capabilities. If the other users are doing this too they aren't sharing the results! I did a number of similar prints for slots, lettering, dimensional consistency and the maximum overhang possible: I then went on with a bit of this: That's a failed print where the material didn't stick properly to the build platform and hence has bits missing - the two rings should look the same. I've had several of these now and it took a couple of evenings to work out a print protocol which gives good attachment. So with that problem fixed I had a go at Marbelup's diesel cab front (I know nothing about the prototype, but I'm sure that he can fill us in): The good: the detail around the vents at the top and little things like the door hinges are all there. The bad: big, ugly ripple at 1.2mm pitch The ripple is not layers of the print (they are much smaller), it's at the pitch of the main leadscrew and is caused by the build table moving from side to side a bit as it moves up. So, the next evening was taken up dissassembling the linear stage of the printer and working out where the ripple is coming from. I managed to make it much better but more fettling will be needed to eliminate it completely. Once I've done that I'll reprint the cab front, which is particularly sensitive to it as it has lots of flat, vertical faces which show up the ripple far more than other models. For example, the Eiffel tower has exactly the same ripple but you don't notice it. I moved on to richbrummitt's beautifully detailed GWR Beetle van in N gauge and made a silly mistake. The print failed part way though because I forgot to implement the fix I found above to keep the model stuck to the build plate. However, floating around in the muck I managed to salvage the first few mm of the model: Which, despite being smeared with debris and being totally mis-shapen does show two things: 1) The remaining ripple isn't really noticeable and 2) the printer is definitely capable of achieving a level of detail I will be very happy with. With growing confidence I corrected my silly mistake and hit print: This time it completed and looks (in my biased opinion) fantastic. It's still not perfect - I didn't put a support near enough to the corner of the model so that bit of the roof didn't form properly - but it's not far off. I'm reprinting it overnight with more supports. After a quick clean up and first pass removing the supports: With this one under my belt I can say that I am VERY happy with my purchase. To answer some of the questions from earlier: Min wall thickness: 1mm is safe, 0.5mm seems to work most of the time and 0.2mm is ok over small, well supported areas Max unsupported overhang angle: ~60 degrees Stepping: you can see some 50um stepping on the front of the diesel cab (which I printed vertically). On the Beetle van, which I printed at an angle you can't really see any at all. (Note - I'm talking about 50um layer stepping, not the ripple issue) Material flexibility: It's pretty soft when it first comes off the printer, but after 10mins or so in a UV box to fully cure the material it's easily hard enough for N gauge rolling stock. There's still more in the bag for the printer. At the moment I'm using relatively thick layers and long exposure times to reduce the risk of failed prints and still have some remaining ripple - having seen the results that other users have been getting (they are printing jewellery masters for casting) I'm confident that there's more detail to be had. But for now I'm a very happy bunny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Looking at that last photo I see that I've been a bit unlucky with the flash. Except at very specific angles the diagonal ripple isn't really visible - I just happen to have found one of them in that photo! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Looking at that last photo I see that I've been a bit unlucky with the flash. Except at very specific angles the diagonal ripple isn't really visible - I just happen to have found one of them in that photo! I did wonder about that. These kind of things often look worse through the lens. Chances are it will look fine like finished and painted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 I've just finished a re-print of the Beetle van with shorter exposure times. The detail on the sides is a bit crisper, and you can just about make out the rivets on the end. They're a bit rounded, but then they are only 150um in diameter! However, the roof still had some holes in, even with the additional supports. I've just added 0.5mm thickness to it on the inside and am running another print with thinner slices. That will finish at about tea-time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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