Presflo Cement Wagon workings and train formations

[Guest Belgian]

I have been wondering how the Presflo wagons were used during the late 1950s and early 1960s as I have a number of photographs of cement trains at Exeter St Davids being double-headed and banked up to the terminal at Exeter Central.

 

Most photos just show one or other end of the train, so what I am trying to establish is the what was in the middle, ie., what were the wagons?

 

I have learnt that these trains originated at Westbury and that a terminal was erected in the old up goods yard at Exeter Central. What I haven't established to my satisfaction is when the latter was built.

 

Since the trains needed four engines up the 1 in 37 I assume they were loaded and that therefore the cement manufacturing factory was at Westbury and Exeter was for unloading. Was this in connection with any major infrastructure works in the West Country at the time? (It can't have been the M5 or the A38 expressway as these didn't materialise until the 1970s as far as I am aware).

 

Were these block loadings in fixed rakes of wagons and, if so, how many rakes were there and what was the timetable, ie., daily, weekly or as required?

 

How many wagons constituted a train or were they filled as required and only loaded wagons included in trains?

 

This all leads me on to other queries regarding the use of Presflos. I understand that they were BR owned but hired out to users, and branded/painted in their corporate liveries. Would a train of Presflos all be in a single user's liveries?

 

I have seen many examples of single or short cuts of Presflos incorporated in general merchandise freights. Does this mean any amount of different users' liveries might be thus seen in one train? Also, if the main flows were to special terminals why were singletons run or were such singletons sent to normal goods yards and did such yards have compressors or other equipment with which to unload them?

 

Those are my initial thoughts, sorry to have asked so many questions, but answering questions and enlarging on specialist subjects is what this great RMweb resource is so good at at doing! Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

 

Jeremy English

 

PS I initially put this in the Prototype Discussions (not questions) forum as I wasn't intending to ask questions, but they somehow popped up I'm afraid.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Belgian

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Jeremy,

 

Westbury was indeed a cement works (until relatively recently in fact), it is now a distribution point for cement from Hope.

 

Exeter Central was receiving cement at least as early as 1963 with steam locos.

 

Some Presflos were in 'Pools' allocated to flows between limited origin and destination points.

 

Some 'Pools' might be shared e.g. a spares Pool for an area so that rakes could be provided as required for differing terminals due to fluctuating traffic demand. 

 

Presflos often carried cement and often ran in block trains but other Presflos ran in traffics such as slate dust ex Delabole either singly or in low numbers. Presflos going to and from repair depots often ran singly in trip workings. Salt and some other powders were also carried in Presflos. Some ferry fitted Presflos carried 'Fullers Earth'.

 

There are several pictures of the Westbury to Exeter block workings in the various diesel hydraulic books, also there has been a Hope Blue Circle to Exeter Central block cement working with Presflos in the past (booked for 2x25). In the 1973/74 Bristol area WTT 6V26 was the 21.10 MX Hope - Exeter Central, 06.45 booked passing Taunton. 

 

A couple of picture references: in 'British Rail in Colour 1968 -1980' the Westbury to Exeter working has at least 22 Presflos (June 76, leaving Westbury) behind a Western, a similar pic at Westbury in 'Westerns, Warships and Hymeks' shows towards 30 Presflos again behind a Western. 

 

Traction magazine Aug 1997 contains a Nov 72 pic of a 47 hauled rake of presflos (approx 28) in Exeter SD waiting to be banked up to Central by a warship. The WTT for the Taunton area at this time doesn't show a booked service...maybe Exeter was receiving cement from either Westbury or Earles under a short term planning arrangement. The 47 might suggest a Hope starting point rather than Westbury in 1972.

 

In the March 1967 Westbury area WTT the Exeter cement ran as 5C10 12.35 MWFO to Exeter Central and TTHO to Exeter Riverside.

 

I would imagine that with this number of wagons in a block train that just one rake worked between Exeter Central and Westbury.

 

As far as I am aware the Blue Circle cement terminal at Exeter was a general distribution terminal and not provided simply for motorway construction.

 

The demise of the various yard to yard services and growth of block train workings throughout the period will have caused the shorter daily cuts of Presflos moving around the country to become concentrated into less frequent block trains. It is quite possible that in the days of the yard to yard workings that cuts of Presflos operated by different companies might be seen in the same train.

 

Regards

 

Dave 

Edited January 27, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Guest Belgian]

Thank you Dave! Now all I need to know is when the Exeter runs started! (I always want more . . . )

 

Jeremy

[hmrspaul]

Hi Jeremy,

 

Westbury was indeed a cement works (until relatively recently in fact), it is now a distibution point for cement from Hope.

 Photo here http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmpresflo/eb92909e Not all presflo were BR owned, APCM had two privately owned batches, 1960 introduced in yellow and 1963 in grey - and grey continued to be their livery after the name boards were removed http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmpresflo

 

 

 

Exeter Central was receiving cement at least as early as 1963 with steam locos.

 

Some Presflos were in 'Pools' allocated to flows between limited origin and destination points.

 

Some 'Pools' might be shared e.g. a spares Pool for an area so that rakes could be provided as required for differing terminals due to fluctuating traffic demand. 

 

Presflos often carried cement and often ran in block trains but other Presflos ran in traffics such as slate dust ex Delabole either singly or in low numbers. Presflos going to and from repair depots often ran singly in trip workings. Salt and some other powders were also carried in Presflos. Some ferry fitted Presflos carried 'Fullers Earth'.

 

There are several pictures of the Westbury to Exeter block workings in the various diesel hydraulic books, also there has been a Hope to Exeter Central block cement working with Presflos in the past (booked for 2x25). In the 1973/74 Bristol area WTT 6V26 was the 21.10 MX Hope - Exeter Central, 06.45 booked passing Taunton. 

 

A couple of picture references: in 'British Rail in Colour 1968 -1980' the Westbury to Exeter working has at least 22 Presflos (June 76, leaving Westbury) behind a Western, a similar pic at Westbury in 'Westerns, Warships and Hymeks' shows towards 30 Presflos again behind a Western. 

 

Traction magazine Aug 1997 contains a Nov 72 pic of a 47 hauled rake of presflos (approx 28) in Exeter SD waiting to be banked up to Central by a warship. The WTT for the Taunton area at this time doesn't show a booked service...maybe Exeter was receiving cement from either Westbury or Earles under a short term planning arrangement. The 47 might suggest a Hope starting point rather than Westbury in 1972.

 

In the March 1967 Westbury area WTT the Exeter cement ran as 5C10 12.35 MWFO to Exeter Central and TTHO to Exeter Riverside.

 

I would imagine that with this number of wagons in a block train that just one rake worked between Exeter Central and Westbury.

 

As far as I am aware the cement terminal at Exeter was a general distribution terminal and not provided simply for motorway construction.

 

The demise of the various yard to yard services and growth of block train workings throughout the period will have caused the shorter daily cuts of Presflos moving around the country to become concentrated into less frequent block trains. It is quite possible that in the days of the yard to yard workings that cuts of Presflos operated by different companies might be seen in the same train.

 

Regards

 

Dave 

There are various photos taken in the yard at Exeter Central in my collections - and elsewhere on RMWEb there has been a recent discussion of cement silos which included a photo of EC. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpresflo/e23be7eb2 EC went on being used long after the BR design Presflo were withdrawn http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/stspca/e3c288452 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmpca/e1c9d4615

You asked about singletons, yes early on there were road vehicles designed to unload direct from the Presflo.

 

You sound as if you are interested in the earliest use of Presflo. Becareful, the early batches had oil, not roller bearing, axleboxes - part of the BR modernisation plan of 1958 was to fit roller bearing to all 35ton GLW wagons (ie with payloads of about 22tons) and the Presflos appear to have been converted early, and totally (unlike other fleets) - perhaps a reflection that the powder was affecting the oil bearings.

Lots more Presflo here http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=presflo

 

Paul Bartlett

PS and thanks for spelling Preflo correctly!

[eastwestdivide]

...

PS and thanks for spelling Preflo correctly!

Muphry's Law in action?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Exeter Central still had presflos the early 80s - I've a photo of APCM ones (private owner) there in 1983. 

[hmrspaul]

Muphry's Law in action?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Exeter Central still had presflos the early 80s - I've a photo of APCM ones (private owner) there in 1983. 

Oops. I won't correct - I was too bothered about ensuring were weren't getting the dreaded presfloW.

 

.. and in summer 1986 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmpresflo/ef628cb4

 

Paul Bartlett

[Rivercider]

Further to the comprehensive answers received above have you found the tauntontrains site

http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/MEMORIES-1960SCEMENT.htm

which gives details of loading and haulage in 1963 and 1964.

 

Regarding the working of the wagons, my experience of Blue Circle Cement working is from the late 1970s in Bristol.

Although they ran as a block trains to some terminals they were not in fixed sets, as Dave says the wagons would probably be in 2 pools

(one for BR wagons, one for BCC owned wagons) based on Westbury BCC which could be sent to any of their terminals, as required.

BR and BCC owned wagons would probably be mixed up together.

When a train of 21 wagons arrived at Exeter Central they would be split onto more than one road for unloading.

If they returned to Westbury by a booked block train then it would convey any empties left of the previous working

and any that were still underload would remain, to go back on the next empty service.

If they returned by ordinary service then one of the local trip freights would convey them in short rakes

to Riverside to connect with the next convenient Westbury service,

 

cheers

 

edit

sorry I am hopeless at linking

The Tauntontrains site mentions that the booked load was 21 wagons, increased to 25 in 1964.

On 2 occasions the supply came from Snodland via Salisbury, hauled by Westcountry/BB class locos 

Edited January 24, 2013 by Rivercider

[Guest Belgian]

Thank you all for the information - especially Paul for giving us all an unintended bit of hilarity and being big enough to let it stand!

 

There are two reasons for my enquiries, the first being that I am in the process of acquiring a few Bachmann models and want to work out whether to collect just one operator's liveries or a variety, and secondly to add a little accuracy to some photographic captions in a couple of books I am involved with.

 

With regard to the latter I will be writing my own words but incorporating information given here. If anyone who has given such info would rather I didn't use it, please let me know and I will avoid using it. Credit will be attributed for information used but I can't actually pay as there's no budget left (books often even fail to cover their costs these days I'm afraid) . . . sorry.

 

Jeremy

[Fat Controller]

At Lawrence Hill, Bristol, in the 1970s, I recollect there being three terminals in close proximity, all fed by the same trip working from Bristol East Depot. Aberthaw and Rugby had terminals in the old goods yard, whilst Blue Circle had theirs just down the Avonside branch.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Jeremy,

 

The pictures which I have seen only show unbranded Presflos or else those carrying Blue Circle boards going to Exeter Central. The Westbury train in the 70s seemed to be mostly made up of those with boards.

 

Regards

 

Dave 

Edited January 25, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[AberdeenBill]

Interesting thread...   To change the subject slightly (as I always seem to do), does anybody have information/pictures of Presflos in their very early days in the mid-1950s?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Bill,

 

The best that I've seen is the 1954 pic on the cover of Don Rowland's 'British Railways Wagons', with duplicate pic and text inside.

 

Regards

 

Dave

Edited January 26, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Adam]

Jeremy,

 

The pictures which I have seen only show unbranded Presflos or else those carrying Blue Circle boards going to Exeter Central. The Westbury train in the 70s seemed to be mostly made up of those with boards.

 

Regards

 

Dave 

 

Well it would be, Exeter Central was a Blue Circle/APCM terminal served by Westbury (an APCM/Blue Circle plant). There would also have been onward traffic to Barnstaple where there was another Blue Circle distribution terminal in the goods yard. There are some excellent pictures of this from the early '80s in one of the MRJ Compendiums showing the buildings and a pair of rather splendid Scammell Routeman lorries. As such, it would be very, very unlikely to see any other operators Preflos there or in block trains at Exeter Central though, assuming there were other rail-served distribution depots out there some where - and I suppose there must have been - they might have been seen at St. Davids. I dimly remember the odd cement wagon there in the '80s (I was very young), but I think these were probably the later air-braked types.

 

As Brian notes, terminals could be very close to each other - there were two at Northam in Southampton. One north of the railway (but served by it) in the Bevois Valley and another south of the line where the Siemens/SWT depot now is. Both different companies so served by different wagons. One was Rugby Cement and the other was Tunnel (I think, do check). 

 

Adam

[Fat Controller]

Well it would be, Exeter Central was a Blue Circle/APCM terminal served by Westbury (an APCM/Blue Circle plant). There would also have been onward traffic to Barnstaple where there was another Blue Circle distribution terminal in the goods yard. There are some excellent pictures of this from the early '80s in one of the MRJ Compendiums showing the buildings and a pair of rather splendid Scammell Routeman lorries. As such, it would be very, very unlikely to see any other operators Preflos there or in block trains at Exeter Central though, assuming there were other rail-served distribution depots out there some where - and I suppose there must have been - they might have been seen at St. Davids. I dimly remember the odd cement wagon there in the '80s (I was very young), but I think these were probably the later air-braked types.

 

As Brian notes, terminals could be very close to each other - there were two at Northam in Southampton. One north of the railway (but served by it) in the Bevois Valley and another south of the line where the Siemens/SWT depot now is. Both different companies so served by different wagons. One was Rugby Cement and the other was Tunnel (I think, do check). 

 

 

Adam

There were three terminals at Northam; Blue Circle and Rugby at Northam Yard, and Tunnel at Bevois Park. Blue Circle managed to have two terminals at Poole as well; one at Poole itself, the other at Hamworthy, only half-a-mile or so away.

At Exeter, my 1980 'Baker' also shows an 'Aberthaw' terminal between St Davids and Cowley Bridge Junction, apparently on the site of the Down yard.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Adam,

 

If you read all of this thread carefully you'll grasp that we are fully aware that Central was a Blue Circle terminal but as with any Conditional traffic (such as cement) the peaks of demand may see wagons from a spare pool utilised and these may be the ones without the Blue Circle boards.

 

Dave

Edited January 26, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Adam]

There were three terminals at Northam; Blue Circle and Rugby at Northam Yard, and Tunnel at Bevois Park. Blue Circle managed to have two terminals at Poole as well; one at Poole itself, the other at Hamworthy, only half-a-mile or so away.

At Exeter, my 1980 'Baker' also shows an 'Aberthaw' terminal between St Davids and Cowley Bridge Junction, apparently on the site of the Down yard.

 

Thanks Brian - all long gone by the time I moved here; I should have checked for photos before posting. Most of the Bevois Park yard is now housing, the owners shove all kins of things over the fence... We seldom made trips down the bank to St Davids coming from Yeovil when I was a kid so the freight traffic down there is a total mystery to me.

 

Sorry Dave, posts crossed. I was merely trying to be explicit, apologies.

 

Adam

Edited January 26, 2013 by Adam

[Rivercider]

 

At Exeter, my 1980 'Baker' also shows an 'Aberthaw' terminal between St Davids and Cowley Bridge Junction, apparently on the site of the Down yard.

Aberthaw Cement had their terminal at Exeter New Yard, which is where the 159 sets now layover between Waterloo duties,

I don't remember any silos there, presumably the presflos were unloaded straight into road transport?

I think the Aberthaw Cement may have been for M5 construction and associated works amongst other things as they also sent traffic to Taunton,

 

cheers

Edited January 26, 2013 by Rivercider

[mark alden]

The train that was banked from St. Davids to Central was 6C65 20.20 Friary to Exeter Central. From the 1971 WTT changes it ran as 6B65.

 

As 6C65 the train also ran to Poole on Tues and Thurs as 6O65. From 6B65 it ran to Central only.

 

There was also a Presflo service from Friary to St. Blazey on a Saturday and quite often Presflo wagons were conveyed as part of the many Friary - Riverside Yard & Friary - St. Blazey freight when traffic was light and a full train was not needed. From Riverside they were conveyed in a morning trip freight to Exmouth Junction, latterly in the dedicated Central trip or in the MoD train to Newcourt on the Exmouth branch.

 

The engine that brough 6C / 6B65 to St. Davids usually became the banker and the engine off the  6C/6B5914.50 Ponsandane - Riverside became the train engine of '65' forward

[Eggesford box]

In the hope that it may be of interest, a 47 at Exeter Central with Presflos. I cannot remember much about it now but presumably it was in the process of shunting the train with a tail lamp on the engine.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Eggesford box

[rob D2]

Nice photo eggesford !

[Rivercider]

In the hope that it may be of interest, a 47 at Exeter Central with Presflos. I cannot remember much about it now but presumably it was in the process of shunting the train with a tail lamp on the engine.

 

Nice photo,

I think it was still possible to run-round on the yard until the end of the traffic, but this may be a move to form up the return empties.

When I saw them trips for Riverside always seemed to go from the down through, where they could wait out of the way of

passenger services until they had a clear run down the bank into St Davids. I presume there was still a signalled move

for the loco to run through the down platform and reverse onto the front of these presflos?

 

cheers  

[Rivercider]

Here is an extract from the Exeter Trip Working Booklet from May 1975 UFN. 

I dont have a copy of the WTT for this date so I don't know how this would fit in with other booked services

and whether the loaded train from Westbury was booked through to Central or terminated at Riverside at this date

but it shows the relevant trip wokings in the area:-

 

 

 

 

 

cheers

 

 

Edited January 30, 2013 by Rivercider

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Evenin' all,

 

Western region WTT Section PG (Westbury area) Oct 75 - May 76 shows 6B22 to be the 19.07 COY (company train) Westbury to Exeter Central, 19.46 passing Castle Cary. The train was also routed via Yeovil and the Salisbury to Exeter line... 20.15 dep Yeovil jcn. The return journey is shown as 6B23 23.15 ex Exeter Riverside to Westbury via Taunton, implying that the empties were initially worked through Exeter as a trip. 

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Edited January 30, 2013 by Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

There was also a Presflo service from Friary to St. Blazey on a Saturday and quite often Presflo wagons were conveyed as part of the many Friary - Riverside Yard & Friary - St. Blazey freight when traffic was light and a full train was not needed. From Riverside they were conveyed in a morning trip freight to Exmouth Junction, latterly in the dedicated Central trip or in the MoD train to Newcourt on the Exmouth branch.

 

Mark,

 

Any idea whether this was cement being supplied to Central for distribution or whether the wagons were empties?

 

Dave

[rob D2]

Those WTTs are fascinating , shows what we have lost really.

Class 08, 25,31,45, 47, 50 ,52

 

sweet....