Warflat Liveries

[Peter Bedding]

'Evening all.

 

The publishing by Bachmann of their intentions for the next 12 months has attracted much interest. One pair of models, which look as if they will grab me, are two Warflats, described as 38-725 WD Khaki Drab, and 38-726 WD Bronze Green respectively. Both with armoured vehicles.

 

I turn to the Forum for advice, please.

 

For which period would these be appropriate? Would they have been seen simultaneously - on the same train even - in the war period? Do "we" have any knowlege of the tanks depicted by Hattons? (Presumably light-weight designs, if not essentially requiring transport by "Warwells".)

 

I assume that they will be "railway" models (i.e 1:76) and not borrowed military models (i.e 1:72). (Never assume, boy).

 

Three bogie vehicles (plus guard's brake van) is the longest train I can sensibly operate, so for a timeline of 1938-1947, at least one will be up for duplication.

 

TIA

 

PB

[petethemole]

Khaki drab for the WW2 years, Bronze Green came after the war and would have been phased in as equipment was due for repainting, so up to 1947 Olive would be OK. I'm up for a few in Khaki; but I'll probably build my own loads, although I'm curious as to what tank(s) Bachmann will use. They would carry all the British built WW2 tanks, except possibly the Centurion, introduced too late for action. Churchills would fit the loading gauge if the exhaust housings were taken off the sides. Comets overhung the sides but were actually in gauge. The Warwells were introduced because the US built Grant and Sherman were too high to use warflats, rather than too heavy or wide.

 

Pete

[Peter Bedding]

Khaki drab for the WW2 years, Bronze Green came after the war and would have been phased in as equipment was due for repainting, so up to 1947 Olive would be OK. I'm up for a few in Khaki; but I'll probably build my own loads, although I'm curious as to what tank(s) Bachmann will use. They would carry all the British built WW2 tanks, except possibly the Centurion, introduced too late for action. Churchills would fit the loading gauge if the exhaust housings were taken off the sides. Comets overhung the sides but were actually in gauge. The Warwells were introduced because the US built Grant and Sherman were too high to use warflats, rather than too heavy or wide.

 

Pete

 

Thanks Pete,

 

So KD it is then. A whole variety of loads offer themselves; thinking cap on.

 

PB

[PhilJ W]

I have seen a picture somewhere of a train of Warwells loaded with Sherman tanks being hauled by a Metropolitan Bo-Bo electric locomotive.

[Arthur]

The prototype photo on Bachmanns website shows a warflat loaded with a Comet.

[Adam]

What little photographic evidence I've noted (sorry Peter, I'm generally looking at the '60s) of post-war usage suggests that Warflats seem to have been used post-war for lighter equipment including artillery pieces and armoured cars and there's not shortage of those - tanks simply got too big to fit in gauge.

Adam

[PhilJ W]

For those who may be interested there are some photographs of ex-WD rolling stock recently posted on the Industrial Railway Society Yahoo group page. These include warflats, tank wagons and vans. At present they are owned by the Israeli Railways but due to be scrapped. Most of them are American built for the British War Office 1940-42. They can be purchased by individuals but all the descriptions are in Hebrew! There is also diagrams of some of the stock giving dimensions.

[Leadmill]

Any more news on these kits in the pipeline? I do hope they bring out a modern(ish) version too.

[michaelreed101]

As a continuation to this topic. It has been stated that bronze green came after the war. Bachmann are issuing a model in BR grey. When would this livery have come into being. I am modelling 1958 - 1964.

Thanks

[Fat Controller]

As a continuation to this topic. It has been stated that bronze green came after the war. Bachmann are issuing a model in BR grey. When would this livery have come into being. I am modelling 1958 - 1964.

Thanks

The BR grey livery was used on those wagons sold to BR by the WD/MoD in several batches post-1948. Curiously, when taken over by BR, they had regional-prefixed numbers (Wxxxxx or similar), rather than the B-prefix that might be expected. Some went into the 'Specials' fleet, whilst others were modified to coil carriers or Bogie Bolster Bs, or were taken into engineers' use. We were using grey Warflats to carry ingot moulds from BSC Landore in the mid-1970s.

[Calnefoxile]

 

I've just had a look at theBachmann site and the photo associated with the Warflats is from the NRM archive http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/38-725.jpg&cat_no=38-725&info=0&width=500&height=315 it seems to be showing Comet tanks on the Warflats.

 

The Comets came into the war later on in 1944, but stayed in service with the British Army for a while after the war according to Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_tank

 

Regards

 

Neal.

[spaceship10]

Hi all! Did BR use warflats on demolition trains when lifting tracks on closed lines?

[adrianbs]

Hi all   Please be aware that their are 3 distinct variants of Warflats used in the UK in both military and Big 4 / BR ownership.   The first series are those built in WW1 for the carriage of the early first war tanks. They were not used much in the UK as the Lozenge shaped tanks were out of gauge but were shipped to France where the Loading gauge was rather more generous.  In the UK,  tanks of all designs were normally carried in the shallow well of Rectanks

    After 1918 they were loaned out to the railways and some were sold to the LNWR (25) and painted in that company's livery after being fitted with 4 Bolsters. After 1923 many more were sold to the LMS and again fitted with Bolsters but of a lower design. They could also be used as Flat wagons.  There is a problem with the use of these wagons as the decking is relatively thin planking, mainly intended so that the officer directing tank loading had something to walk on, hence their conversion to Bolster wagons.  Heavy point loads were prohibited  unless they were carried by the substantial pressed steel side  members which, of course, were where the tank tracks ran.  These wagons plus the ex LNWR ones were all painted LMS grey till about 1936 and then LMS bauxite until BR days when of course being unfitted they reverted to BR light grey. The end jacks were removed by the LMS and a plate substituted behind the buffer although without the plate on the LNWR ones which had a different buffer. As far as I know none of these wagons were upgraded to Vacuum brake in this country but some remained in France and were either Air braked or piped (not sure which) and one was in the museum in Mulhouse. A few survived.in departmental use and were vac piped. This design only had brakeshoes on the bogie nearest the  handbrake wheel.

   At the beginning of WW2 a futher batch of about 100 were built pretty much to the same design but these were improved with air and vac brakes, screw couplings and a new design "International" style buffer. The diamond bogie geometry was marginally  altered to permit the use of 2'9" wheels on the Warwells

    These two designs are distinguished by having pressed steel side members made by Leeds Forge and only a few rivets. In fact almost all the chassis is made from pressed steel cross members and additional pressed steel longitudinals. These wagons could only carry about 40 tons and were presumably owned initially by the MOD and were Khaki. They were all sold off shortly after the war and being fitted may have been in BR Bauxite from the start.

     The third type was an uprated 50Ton version of type 2 with the outer girders replaced with built up rivetted sections, although internally the structure remained as per the previous designs. These initially remained in military ownership as they could carry the Centurion but not in the UK. Many were shipped to Germany and fitted with side extensions to accomodate the wider tanks. Others remained here for smaller tracked vehicles.  Eventually many were transferred to BR and have been modified for quite a number of uses, particularly steel coil traffic.  They are easily distiguished as the side members have hundreds of rivets,  Livery should have been BR bauxite but some may have been grey like their older siblings  although in later years it was not easy from an distance to tell if the colour was paint or rust.    adrianbs

[wamwig]

I Believe the vehicle shown (T188512) is in fact a Cromwell tank with additional turrent stowage, rather than a Comet.

[Bon Accord]

Marchwood SMC has an interesting selection of internal user wagons, especially WW2 era warflats.

 

[Fat Controller]

Marchwood SMC has an interesting selection of internal user wagons, especially WW2 era warflats.

 

IMG_3575.JPG

IMG_3574.JPG

That's one of the ones that were brought back from the BAOR back in the 1990s, perhaps the early 2000s. They were fitted with side-extensions to allow them to carry Centurions and their successors, along with Y25 bogies and air-brakes. There were 81 brought back, delivered by rail to Eurotunnel's engineers' yard at Cheriton; from there, they were loaded on to a low- loader, and transferred to the parking area of the former Exhibition Centre. There, a crane lifted them on to 'normal' trailers for forwarding, either to Marchwood, or to E G Steele's wagon works in Central Scotland.

[Leadmill]

I wish Bachman would hurry up...

[Swindon 123]

Hi all   Please be aware that their are 3 distinct variants of Warflats used in the UK in both military and Big 4 / BR ownership.   The first series are those built in WW1 for the carriage of the early first war tanks. They were not used much in the UK as the Lozenge shaped tanks were out of gauge but were shipped to France where the Loading gauge was rather more generous.  In the UK,  tanks of all designs were normally carried in the shallow well of Rectanks

    After 1918 they were loaned out to the railways and some were sold to the LNWR (25) and painted in that company's livery after being fitted with 4 Bolsters. After 1923 many more were sold to the LMS and again fitted with Bolsters but of a lower design. They could also be used as Flat wagons.  There is a problem with the use of these wagons as the decking is relatively thin planking, mainly intended so that the officer directing tank loading had something to walk on, hence their conversion to Bolster wagons.  Heavy point loads were prohibited  unless they were carried by the substantial pressed steel side  members which, of course, were where the tank tracks ran.  These wagons plus the ex LNWR ones were all painted LMS grey till about 1936 and then LMS bauxite until BR days when of course being unfitted they reverted to BR light grey. The end jacks were removed by the LMS and a plate substituted behind the buffer although without the plate on the LNWR ones which had a different buffer. As far as I know none of these wagons were upgraded to Vacuum brake in this country but some remained in France and were either Air braked or piped (not sure which) and one was in the museum in Mulhouse. A few survived.in departmental use and were vac piped. This design only had brakeshoes on the bogie nearest the  handbrake wheel.

   At the beginning of WW2 a futher batch of about 100 were built pretty much to the same design but these were improved with air and vac brakes, screw couplings and a new design "International" style buffer. The diamond bogie geometry was marginally  altered to permit the use of 2'9" wheels on the Warwells

    These two designs are distinguished by having pressed steel side members made by Leeds Forge and only a few rivets. In fact almost all the chassis is made from pressed steel cross members and additional pressed steel longitudinals. These wagons could only carry about 40 tons and were presumably owned initially by the MOD and were Khaki. They were all sold off shortly after the war and being fitted may have been in BR Bauxite from the start.

     The third type was an uprated 50Ton version of type 2 with the outer girders replaced with built up rivetted sections, although internally the structure remained as per the previous designs. These initially remained in military ownership as they could carry the Centurion but not in the UK. Many were shipped to Germany and fitted with side extensions to accomodate the wider tanks. Others remained here for smaller tracked vehicles.  Eventually many were transferred to BR and have been modified for quite a number of uses, particularly steel coil traffic.  They are easily distiguished as the side members have hundreds of rivets,  Livery should have been BR bauxite but some may have been grey like their older siblings  although in later years it was not easy from an distance to tell if the colour was paint or rust.    adrianbs

 

Based on what adrianbs has said above then this would be a photo of the third type of warflat.

 

JEV, W160018, Temple Mills, 2nd February 1982.

 

Paul J.

 

PS as with a lot of my photos a higher resolution copy can be found on my Flickr site here, https://flic.kr/p/ofX1gP

Edited November 17, 2014 by Swindon 123

[TheQ]

Based on what adrianbs has said above then this would be a photo of the third type of warwell.

Err warflat!!

[Swindon 123]

 

Based on what adrianbs has said above then this would be a photo of the third type of warwell.

Err warflat!!

Errrr, I stand suitably corrected and so will the post.

 

Paul J.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Swindon 123

[Swindon 123]

I don't know why but I've had a lot of trouble adding text outside the quote box, hence the strange post above???

 

Anyhow my post with the Warflat photo has been suitably amended thanks to TheQ

 

Paul J

[Fat Controller]

British Steel Landore had a few WW2 Warflats allocated for ingot mould traffic, if anyone fancies doing a 'civilianised' one. No mods, apart from a repaint in something closer to GWR freight red than bauxite. The moulds were located using big hunks of wood, then chained down.

Incidentally, for trivia fans; are you aware of the connection between 'Leeds Forge', who built many of the wagons with 'Lewis' and 'Silent Witness'? Samson Fox, who established the company, was the great, great-grandfather of Laurence and Emilia Fox. The Fox coach bogie, used by many pre-grouping companies, was also one of his designs.

[richard i]

I know the Bachmann wagon is later, but if i am building a warflat for WW1 what would its paint scheme be?

[br2975]

Anybody fancy a red one ?

.

The former W160172, seen in 2002.

 

Brian R

Edited February 11, 2015 by br2975

[Chris hndrsn]

I just sent a query to Bachmann about the Warflat (which used the "Parrot" telegraph code during WW1):

 

"My query is about the Warflat wagon being released in April 2017. This wagon was a version of a 40 ton WW1 design. There are images of these at the Australian War Memorial, which I posted at RMWeb http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-19663-0-68274500-1387210047.jpg and http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post-19663-0-07155100-1387209966.jpg .

 

I realise the time is much too short to include a version as part of the April release, but how about for November 2017, the 100th Anniversary of the Battle of Cambrai? That may give Bachmann time for new artwork and commissioning of resin MK IV male and female tanks in rail transit mode."

 

Cheers,

Chris