RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted November 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2013 Have patience TTG. It's a virtue. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Just wondered what was going on Reading show next for them. Will ask them to see what is going on as I will be at the Reading show. . Has anyone joined this, costS a fiver ! http://www.ztcownersclub.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMSNCC Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I spoke briefly with Neil at warkey, he confirmed that the 505 could be upgraded and that he was still hopeful of a January date for the 611. They had a 611 on the stand, looked just like the 511 but with a few small changes. I didn't look too closely. He also confirmed that the new software would be easily upgradable by the end user through the net. He seemed like a good guy, I'm pretty sure I'll dust off my 505 and send it for the upgrade! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 I spoke with Neil today at the Reading O Gauge Traders show and whilst they had a 611 on show, looks like a 511, he does not seem willing to commit to any release date other than first few months of 2014. I asked a few direct questions with regards its capabilities and was a little disappointed by some of his replies and its obvious some of his answers are made up to suit the questions. I did manage to catch him by surprise with one question and that was about knowing what functions were active by some form of indication on the display. He had not thought of that and a note was made. So things are not ready, things still need thinking through so dont hold your breath on this appearing soon. If it does it will be lacking a few things that are considered standard on other systems. He is still flogging the 511. Why would anyone buy one at the price he is selling them at with all its known problems and the 611 clearly on display ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) I spoke with Neil today at the Reading O Gauge Traders show and whilst they had a 611 on show, looks like a 511, he does not seem willing to commit to any release date other than first few months of 2014. I asked a few direct questions with regards its capabilities and was a little disappointed by some of his replies and its obvious some of his answers are made up to suit the questions. I did manage to catch him by surprise with one question and that was about knowing what functions were active by some form of indication on the display. He had not thought of that and a note was made. So things are not ready, things still need thinking through so dont hold your breath on this appearing soon. If it does it will be lacking a few things that are considered standard on other systems. He is still flogging the 511. Why would anyone buy one at the price he is selling them at with all its known problems and the 611 clearly on display ? Was he offering a free upgrade to a 611 for any 511s purchased at the show, or selling the 511s at a discount? That would seem to me to be the only way to move 511s with the 611 on the way. You'd have to be mad to spend GBP400 now on a 511 only to have to lay out another GBP200 to upgrade it to a 611 in a few months time. I see from the web site that fixing the directional lighting "bug" and the startup voltage stability issue are now being publicised as new features. It is unclear from the web site whether the prices of the 511 and 611 at GBP399 and EDIT [GBP499 sorry should have read GBP449 apopogies to all], respectively include a PSU, with a mail order price of GBP49. This is a significant extra cost to get either model up and running if the PSU isn't included in the price. Despite my comments, I do wish Neil well, but I think he has a very big credibility mountain to climb, and the 611 will have to be near perfect on release if he's to succeed with it. Edited January 3, 2014 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Did not ask about buying anything other than the upgrade. There did not appear to be any offers at the show with regards buying a 511 with free upgrade to 611 or indeed any offers. You are right about a mountain to climb. I would be interested in the upgrade for my 511. But it going have to be worth while. 50:50 at the moment. As an ECoS user it may make an interesting dumb addition to driving side if things as an extra control panel but for anything else. Not sure. Do I want to spend £200 on an upgrade to fix the lights issue and add zero functionality. It does not have Railcom but as it would be fed into the ECoS via the sniffer port it would lose the feed back aspect anyway. I think he really does need to visit his pricing as it really is still in the starter bracket when compared to other systems at lower pricing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 The omission of Railcom is surprising given that some of the decoders from the 255 and 4007 onwards are Railcom (ZTC Talkback) capable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I really did not come away from my chat with Neil any confidence in the product, his commitment, understanding of his product or anything that really would convince me to buy anything. His replies were not convincing, lacked depth or knowledge...................it goes on. Disappointed really. But then again this is ZTC we are talking about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2014 Neil is trying where others have tried before. I like the ZTC equipment and have always supported it, but I am concerned that unless the 611 is a quantum improvement over the 511 I'll be disappointed. I don't understand why the electronics could not just start all over again with modern DCC equipment "under the bonnet" while retaining the asthetically pleasing control panel. TTG's post # 83 does not inspire. ZTC still seem to be on the "fix the bugs" mode rather than a fresh start mode. Also is the 611 still backwards compatible with Zero-one? If it is, perhaps they should drop that complication. That may (or may not) be a factor that is holding the brakes on. I would have thought that the number of customers requiring that facility must be low, and that their needs have already been satisfied with the 511. Are we still dealing with a "one man band" or is there some team of experts now working behind the scenes to perfect the ZTC product? It would be nice to think it was the latter. We'll have to wait and see if this gets better than a corner shop. Certainly the advertising strategy is still very "corner shop" and old hat with ZTC still explaining the benefits of DCC in the advertisments. We don't see Nokia et all explaining in their advertising that with their phone it can be carried in your pocket instead of sitting on a table in the hall!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Neil is trying where others have tried before. I like the ZTC equipment and have always supported it, but I am concerned that unless the 611 is a quantum improvement over the 511 I'll be disappointed. I don't understand why the electronics could not just start all over again with modern DCC equipment "under the bonnet" while retaining the asthetically pleasing control panel. TTG's post # 83 does not inspire. ZTC still seem to be on the "fix the bugs" mode rather than a fresh start mode. Also is the 611 still backwards compatible with Zero-one? If it is, perhaps they should drop that complication. That may (or may not) be a factor that is holding the brakes on. I would have thought that the number of customers requiring that facility must be low, and that their needs have already been satisfied with the 511. Are we still dealing with a "one man band" or is there some team of experts now working behind the scenes to perfect the ZTC product? It would be nice to think it was the latter. We'll have to wait and see if this gets better than a corner shop. Certainly the advertising strategy is still very "corner shop" and old hat with ZTC still explaining the benefits of DCC in the advertisments. We don't see Nokia et all explaining in their advertising that with their phone it can be carried in your pocket instead of sitting on a table in the hall!! You've raised some very good points, Colin. I think someone has already commented earlier in this thread that the innards and firmware program are new, just the casing, controls and display remain unchanged. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Neil's comments about testing at times seem to contradict themselves. Simple things seemed to have been missed. The so called testers, the programmers and coders seemed to be one person at one point of the conversation then it drifted out to a few then back to one. Not convinced this is being done properly. Seems ZTC won't be at the Bristol O gauge show, it's on their doorstep. They have been there the past few years. Perhaps no point going if you know you won't sell anything. As for Zero One. The old owners did make a comment to me that the firmware that managed the Zero One portion was very expensive to licence so it pushed up the cost of the 511. I asked if I could have a 511 without the Zero One ability as I would never want to use clockwork technology. Did not go down well. But what a pathetic comment to make. Just about sums the whole set up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 The 611 has the same case as the 511, but as I understand it with a new mother board made using more modern electronic components, modern much larger capacity memory chips, and hardware features that were extra with the 511 such as computer interface, and extra presets memory, being included as standard. The software is being completely re-written in a modern programming language, because the 511 software is written using a language that not many programmers understand now and has been 'patched' a lot to the extent that it's no longer easily modified. The 611 software will not include Zero1 support. Anyone wanting that will have to keep a 511. I don't know how many people still use a 511 for Zero1. As a starting point, the 611 will work as a 511 but with bugs fixed, and enhancements as per the ZTC website such as Functions up to 28, momentary or latching, larger loco roster up to 128 locos, and more. ZTC certainly arn't a 'one man band'. For example Neil Kinison is the owner but there's a gentleman called Graham on the helpline, and neither of them are programmers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 We knew all of the above as it's on the web site. It's how Neil comes over when spoken to directly that causes the concerns. Where do you fit in. Tester perhaps. What is the ZTC club thing on line that you have to pay to join. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2014 Its a sort of specialised RMweb with a subscription. A ZTC forum on RMweb would serve thesame purpose methinks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Free on RM Web. Why pay a fiver, smacks of rip off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2014 Free on RM Web. Why pay a fiver, smacks of rip off. Two tone green, perhaps you could set up a one man ZTC bashing site, it seems to be your favourite occupation. As has been said before if you don't like them, don't use them. Your expending so much time and energy constantly running them down from a position of ignorance really does become tiresome. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) As far as 'Two Tone Green' comments re programmers and testers go, It's not practical for more than one programmer to work on one program. I do know about this, I spent my whole career working in computer systems, starting as a programmer, and once a programmer ... always a programmer. There will be one programmer and several testers including Neil Kinison himself. That's fairly obvious. As far as asking for a 511 without Zero1 support goes, I'm not surprised this got 'short shrift'. This would have meant maintaining 2 versions of the software, one with Zero1 and one without, and bearing in mind that the software already included Zero1 support would have then incurred a lot of programming expense at the whim of one customer. Again, you should not tar current owner Neil Kinison with the same brush as previous owners. Previous ZTC statements of years ago are nothing to do with him. Edited January 3, 2014 by Combe Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) I'm sure that the old ZTC user forum was free as I don't remember having to paying to use it when I had my 505. In theory dedicated user forums should be better than RM Web, sorry to have to say that and no criticism of RM web or its members intended. But on open forums you do find at times misinformation about products being posted by people who don't use them. I have to admit that I've done that myself in the past, and hopefully have learned my lesson.. Such postings are not intentionally wrong or malicious, just based on incorrect assumptions or misreading of manuals. If access is restricted to actual current users of the product then you ought to get better informed answers. Famous last words, watch me crash and burn. Yes only one programmer if the program is not modular. But you need many testers as no programmer is going to spot every error or problem, or there'd be no need for Beta testing. Edited January 3, 2014 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Two tone green, perhaps you could set up a one man ZTC bashing site, it seems to be your favourite occupation. As has been said before if you don't like them, don't use them. Your expending so much time and energy constantly running them down from a position of ignorance really does become tiresome. Jerry Why ignorance. I own a 511, 622 and other ZTC equipment and have done for many years. I spoke with Neil directly so have passed on what he told me and how I felt after the conversation with him I am interested in upgrading my 511 with the new hardware and firmware so ignorance would work against me. Spending £200 to do this needs information and be able to make an informed choice based on opinion etc. Perhaps your ignorance is leading you in the wrong direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2014 The 611 has the same case as the 511, but as I understand it with a new mother board made using more modern electronic components, modern much larger capacity memory chips, and hardware features that were extra with the 511 such as computer interface, and extra presets memory, being included as standard. The software is being completely re-written in a modern programming language, because the 511 software is written using a language that not many programmers understand now and has been 'patched' a lot to the extent that it's no longer easily modified. The 611 software will not include Zero1 support. Anyone wanting that will have to keep a 511. I don't know how many people still use a 511 for Zero1. As a starting point, the 611 will work as a 511 but with bugs fixed, and enhancements as per the ZTC website such as Functions up to 28, momentary or latching, larger loco roster up to 128 locos, and more. ZTC certainly arn't a 'one man band'. For example Neil Kinison is the owner but there's a gentleman called Graham on the helpline, and neither of them are programmers. That is encouraging news. I am hoping to get a 611 upgrade and this does now appear to be a fresh start. I think Neil is the one with the money funding the development. It does not really worry me if he is not able to field all the technical questions, so long as he passes them on to the programmer(s) to make sure that they make the 611 a good product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 That is encouraging news. I am hoping to get a 611 upgrade and this does now appear to be a fresh start. I think Neil is the one with the money funding the development. It does not really worry me if he is not able to field all the technical questions, so long as he passes them on to the programmer(s) to make sure that they make the 611 a good product. Someone somwhere should have prepared a detailed specification for the new 611 and its firmware. This is even more essential if the development work, including writing the new completely new firmware, is being done outside of the ZTC company itself. The programmer will work to the specification. If it's not in the spec then it won't happen, unless the programmer uses his initiative or experience, not always desirable as you can end up with the program doing something that you don't want. He who pays the piper calls the tune, but that doesn't have to be Neil if he has someone knowledgeable doing all this backroom stuff for him. But if I were funding it through the company that I owned then I'd want to make damned sure that I knew exactly what was going on as it would be my money that was being spent. I hope the 611 is successful, but I shan't be selling my ECoS to buy one - once bitten twice shy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) Before it was packed for a house move last September, my 505 developed a weird fault. Whenever forward or reverse was selected, a loco/unit would move with the speed control in the closed position until full power was being delivered. In other words, no real control at all. I found this rather disappointing given that it's only had occasional light use over the last five years or so. However, I like the basic design and looking at quality alternatives suggests an outlay of around £400, so the 611 upgrade could be a fix - at least in the short term. Edited January 4, 2014 by Trevellan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Someone somwhere should have prepared a detailed specification for the new 611 and its firmware. This is even more essential if the development work, including writing the new completely new firmware, is being done outside of the ZTC company itself. The programmer will work to the specification. If it's not in the spec then it won't happen, unless the programmer uses his initiative or experience, not always desirable as you can end up with the program doing something that you don't want. Exactly, hence my earlier comment "It wil have it's own completely unique set of new bugsfeatures :-)" which some people didn't seem to understand. From my own dealings with the old ZTC, even they didn't understand all of their own products. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Before it was packed for a house move last September, my 505 developed a weird fault. Whenever forward or reverse was selected, a loco/unit would move with the speed control in the closed position until full power was being delivered. In other words, no real control at all. I found this rather disappointing given that it's only had occasional light use over the last five years or so. However, I like the basic design and looking at quality alternatives suggests an outlay of around £400, so the 611 upgrade could be a fix - at least in the short term. Sounds like dirt or damp in the throttle control. Did you try recalibrating the throttle? If the upgrade uses the existing throttle, brake and reverser units from the unit being upgraded it might not cure your problem. If I were you, I'd check on this with ZTC before buying the upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Recalibrating the throttle is definitely worth trying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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