Cammell Laird of Nottingham 20t hopper for use in Liverpool power stations.

[Michael Delamar]

Hi guys

 

Im looking to find any info, photographs and drawings of these hoppers so that they can be modelled in 4mm, that is if no kit exists, the period modelled will be the 1950s.

 

many thanks in advance for any help

 

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

 

[Fat Controller]

Mike,

It looks as though some of these wagons survived in industrial use at Avenue Coking Works, just south of Chesterfield. This certainly looks like one:-

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/chesterfieldavenue/h5dae4962#h5dae4962

 

There may be a drawing in the book David Monk-Steel did on Industrial Wagons for the Industrial Railway Society; I'll have a look for my copy.

 

Brian

[Michael Delamar]

thanks Brian, I did just email Paul Bartlett as was sure he would have shots but I didnt know where to look,also asked Bob Essery.

 

Im going to go through my shots of these trains around Liverpool and see if I can spot them, even though you cant see them clearly in most of the shots, the height difference is visible as I think they where mixed with other LMS/BR hoppers in the 1950s, Ive only just been given that shot yesterday and the big thing Ive noticed is the large hand wheel in the centre.

 

Mike

Edited May 29, 2013 by Michael Delamar

[Ian Fisher]

Royal Ordance Factory Nottingham, managed by Cammel Laird. Bought outright by Laird's who suprise suprise went bust, with the factory going to Metro Cammel by 1935.

 

I'd bet the Liverpool Record Office may have something on these? I beleive its only just reopened too?

 

Ian

[Ian Fisher]

http://oldswan.piczo.com/greenlane?cr=5&linkvar=000044

 

Some in use here..

[Michael Delamar]

this is the location we are modelling on the dock road Liverpool, ex Midland Sandon Goods yard where the wagons to Clarence dock power station passed through the yard.

aswel as drawings and details, we need to know things like lettering in the 1950s, such as where they "non pool" and did they have that written on them?

 

[Mark Saunders]

This was at Cambois Power Station till it was brought out with the cripples to Cambois Depot one night and the CEGB denied it was theirs and so it remained there for at least 10 years before being broken up!

 

 

This is a to a slightly different design.

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

They'd almost certainly would have been 'non-pool', like the 20t tipplers owned by the West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority. These latter survived to carry CEGB livery, lasting until the late 1970s. The specific lettering would have been  'Non-Pool' , enclosed in a box, along with a yellow marking with a black 'c' on it. This was the 'Commuted Charge' labelling, on the left on this wagon:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cegbtippler/h3f9e7a96#h3f9e7a96

To save you holding your breath, I've not yet found my copy of the D M-S book- perhaps someone else on here might have a copy?

[Michael Delamar]

thanks Brian,

 

looking through other shots I have, in a lot of the shots they are these wagons or BR 21t like in this link..

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/5265404059/in/photostream/

 

but also the style of this one next to the loco which I am unsure of..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2013 by Michael Delamar

[Mark Saunders]

They'd almost certainly would have been 'non-pool', like the 20t tipplers owned by the West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority. These latter survived to carry CEGB livery, lasting until the late 1970s. The specific lettering would have been  'Non-Pool' , enclosed in a box, along with a yellow marking with a black 'c' on it. This was the 'Commuted Charge' labelling, on the left on this wagon:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cegbtippler/h3f9e7a96#h3f9e7a96

To save you holding your breath, I've not yet found my copy of the D M-S book- perhaps someone else on here might have a copy?

 

In 1939 the Liverpool Fleet was pooled as Hoppers were not exempt from pooling, even though they tried to retain them and the correspondance is in the National Archive at Kew. The West Midlands Electricity Authority Tipplers (later CEGB) which were non pool because they were specially constructed except the first 17 which had doors.

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

thanks Brian,

 

looking through other shots I have, in a lot of the shots they are these wagons or BR 21t like in this link..

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/5265404059/in/photostream/

 

but also the style of this one next to the loco which I am unsure of..

 

clarence dock.jpg

That looks very much like one of the BR-built 24.5t hoppers, latterly known as HUO under TOPS; the one behind is an LNER-built 21t hopper.

[Michael Delamar]

thanks Brian

 

I wonder if the BR ones where for additional supply rather than regular flow that the 20t ones worked, I also wondered where they where loaded?

I have a nice 1957 shot of a J39 hauling a mix rake of hoppers through Gatacre on the CLC North Liverpool line with a train for Clarence dock power station, cant make out the wagons but what is visible is the different height of them all.

[Fat Controller]

thanks Brian

 

I wonder if the BR ones where for additional supply rather than regular flow that the 20t ones worked, I also wondered where they where loaded?

I have a nice 1957 shot of a J39 hauling a mix rake of hoppers through Gatacre on the CLC North Liverpool line with a train for Clarence dock power station, cant make out the wagons but what is visible is the different height of them all.

If the purpose-built ones had gone in to a pool, then the chances are that some would have been 'lost', so that the 'Pool fleet didn't have enough wagons for the normal traffic. In that case, BR wagons would have been drafted in. I wonder what other traffic, if any, used hoppers around the Liverpool area at the time of those photos? The use of hoppers for coal (outside of specific flows such as Swindon Gasworks and Stonebridge Park power station) was largely an (ex) LNER thing into the early 1960s.

[Mark Saunders]

The Liverpool Corperation Hoppers remained in Circuit working during and after the war!

 

Mark Saunders

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... The use of hoppers for coal (outside of specific flows such as Swindon Gasworks and Stonebridge Park power station) was largely an (ex) LNER thing into the early 1960s.

 But (going off-thread slightly) what is really interesting about these Private Owner wagons, is that when the LNER decided to embark on steel hoppers in the mid 1930s, as successors to the range of 20T wooden construction hoppers developed by the NER; it looks to me that much of the 'DNA' of the LNER's 20T steel hopper designs came from the experience of these earlier vehicles.

 

Interesting vehicle, I am sure one operated in ECML coal hauls in the 1950/60 time frame.

[Fat Controller]

The Liverpool Corperation Hoppers remained in Circuit working during and after the war!

 

Mark Saunders

How did they manage to both put them into the pool, and keep them in the 'Pool? I thought the essence of the pool system was that wagons went anywhere.

[Mark Saunders]

How did they manage to both put them into the pool, and keep them in the 'Pool? I thought the essence of the pool system was that wagons went anywhere.

 

Pooling allowed for wagons to be available for other traffic , retaining these in Circuit was the result of Liverpool Corperation lobbying to retain these wagons as "Non Pool" in effect a compromise.

 

The argument that they were specially constructed was rejected by the Ministry likewise Fox had his hoppers pooled even though he argued they were specially constructed for Slack Coal with thinner planking to increase cubic capacity. However ICI retained their bogie hoppers as they were over the weight for pooling,

 

Mark Saunders

[Michael Delamar]

this is a preview shot of a Mersey Docks & Harbour board Hunslet hauling a train of ex LNER hoppers through Sandon yard. this is why Ive been so concerned with adding plenty of weight to my dock locos, even moreso if I have to build the 20t hoppers in brass.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/b08/8-28-8.htm

[hmrspaul]

Pooling allowed for wagons to be available for other traffic , retaining these in Circuit was the result of Liverpool Corperation lobbying to retain these wagons as "Non Pool" in effect a compromise.

 

The argument that they were specially constructed was rejected by the Ministry likewise Fox had his hoppers pooled even though he argued they were specially constructed for Slack Coal with thinner planking to increase cubic capacity. However ICI retained their bogie hoppers as they were over the weight for pooling,

 

Mark Saunders

As Mark is aware there were many fleets of ex PO wagons retained in circuits. They were stencilled for their workings.

 

These stencillings are mentioned on drawing RCH 2692 "Renumbering of ex P.O. Wagon & Railway wagons repaired by private repairers. Open type (typical) except 16ton all steel mineral wagons. "

 

This says "For ex P.O. wagons only - Directional lettering and regional identification in yellow in 2" letters enclosed by a yellow frame (when authorised) to be placed on a black panel. It is shown immediately inboard of the left hand corner plate on the top 2 planks.

 

As an educated guess, these Liverpool hoppers would have had similar stencillings, although there isn't any sign of that remaining on the ones I managed to photo when they were in internal use.

 

Regards

[Michael Delamar]

here is a loaded train with some in the train, heading towards one of the Liverpool power stations at Fazakerley

Fazakerley Sidings  West 1957 by stephenwolstenholme.t21, on Flickr

 

 

and some in this train of empties heading away from Liverpool at Heaton Mersey Stockport, 

 

River Mersey Railway Bridge by D3Steve, on Flickr

[Michael Delamar]

1st and 2nd wagon here are visible as the same 20t type,with more further on, heading towards Liverpool at Glazebrook, 21st June 1957.

just havent got any clear shots of them in this period.

 

 

The copyright on this image is owned by Ben Brooksbank and is licensed for reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Michael Delamar

[hmrspaul]

I had overlooked I have more photos of these, and in good condition considering their age and use http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e10b9054b

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e18b92f6f   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e1128acf7  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e12074caa  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/ea2817fb

 

I am not sure if the curved ones are also Liverpool hoppers http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e1c778bf9  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e11289b5d  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brpomineral/e1f7a1c91

 

As mentioned earlier there are several in the Chesterfield Avenue Works collection. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/chesterfieldavenue

 

Paul

[Michael Delamar]

thank you Paul.

 

the curved ones maybe? Ive noticed in the shot of the Austerity, if you go to the original full size image on flickr, the first 2 wagons have the large wheel, but the hopper shape is different on them.

[hmrspaul]

I have now posted my photos of the conserved one at Bolton Abbey. This is from the final batch, delivered at Nationalisation. See http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/embsay

 

 

Paul Bartlett

[Mark Saunders]

These two photo's were taken at Embsay in 1990 but I have no details for them. The Grey one has a three didgit number on the centre of the slebar as per the one at Cambois but I do not know what either one is!

 

If any one has better photographs or know the numbers on the wagons could you please help?

 

Mark Saunders