Provisional Terminus Idea - Updated 6/5/15

[Blackbuck]

Another day, another revision to the goods yard (mainly).

• Other than having to reverse from the shed road itself I think that the ELD and associated provender are now in the best place that I can find for them.
• The lengths of the three roads around the shed might change slightly depending on what could justifiably be needed to fill them.

 

I'm probably over complicating the yard with regards to the two slips but they're the best way I can think of to lay the yard out. The clearance required for a decent sized yard shunter may require the shed to be relocated slightly farther back to avoid the loco from entering it but otherwise I'm reasonably happy it.

 

~Mark.

[mightbe]

Excellent looking plan!

 

For the goods yard where do trains arrive? You have a crossover into the shed that is practically unusable (IMO) because locos weren't allowed in sheds, so that can be removed. I'd extended the "Long Road" up to the..err.. road and put a loco release crossover releasing onto the "Short Road". Now there would be two loco releases--one on platform 2 (from top) and one for goods. Lots of flexibility. Both should have about 12" of flex allotted, so that even with buffer stops a larger visiting loco can be released from its train.

 

For the FY: move the turntable to connect to the 'top' track. Currently the topmost two tracks have no access and arriving locos would be deprived being turned. Remember to consider door clearances etc for the traverser (if it applies).

 

EDIT: I would remove the facing slip from the throat.. however you can manage that.

[Ray H]

Can I suggest that you need at least one stub track at the scenic end of the traverser for locos to reverse on having come off the turntable and run through on an empty siding.

[melmerby]

How do you get a loco from the engine shed to platform 1?

Surely there must be occasions where a loco on a return service does not just run around it's train?

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Excellent looking plan!

 

 You have a crossover into the shed that is practically unusable (IMO) because locos weren't allowed in sheds, so that can be removed.

Except here?

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd724a.htm

(Theres always an exception!)

 

Keith

[kevinlms]

Except here?

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd724a.htm

(Theres always an exception!)

 

Keith

And gives a good explanation of why it was generally a BAD idea!

[Blackbuck]

Excellent looking plan!

 

For the goods yard where do trains arrive? You have a crossover into the shed that is practically unusable (IMO) because locos weren't allowed in sheds, so that can be removed. I'd extended the "Long Road" up to the..err.. road and put a loco release crossover releasing onto the "Short Road". Now there would be two loco releases--one on platform 2 (from top) and one for goods. Lots of flexibility. Both should have about 12" of flex allotted, so that even with buffer stops a larger visiting loco can be released from its train.

 

For the FY: move the turntable to connect to the 'top' track. Currently the topmost two tracks have no access and arriving locos would be deprived being turned. Remember to consider door clearances etc for the traverser (if it applies).

 

EDIT: I would remove the facing slip from the throat.. however you can manage that.

 

• Originally it was my intent for them to be stabled in the loop, run-around then reversed from the station and back into the yard, which I admit is rather convoluted and involves some distanced travelled beyond the throat to achieve.
• The only issue with having run-round facilities in P2 is that the carriage siding then lacks the ability to hold the stock brought in unless it's left in P2 and shunted onto the stops by the pilot?
• The clearance for the door is what is niggling away at me at the moment, extending the boards would interfere with it and the turntable can only go so high. An alternative method I suppose would be to use cassettes, loco drives in, lift and rotate the cassette and place it at the head of the traverser or allow it to run through it, either way it would be more compact than the turntable...
• Without extending the throat somewhat I'm not sure how you could not have to use the slip

 

Can I suggest that you need at least one stub track at the scenic end of the traverser for locos to reverse on having come off the turntable and run through on an empty siding.

 

• That would be a wise idea! The cassette idea might alleviate that though given enough tweaking of the scenic end and foreshortening the approach to the tunnel mouth.

 

How do you get a loco from the engine shed to platform 1?

Surely there must be occasions where a loco on a return service does not just run around it's train?

 

Keith

 

• Via the run-round loop and slip? At least that was my understanding.

~Mark

[mightbe]

Ah, perhaps I was not clear. I numbered the platforms in my head from top to bottom. I didn't see that you had already numbered them. My mistake! No need to sacrifice the carriage siding. 

 

But I think you should have a dedicated goods arrival/departure track with a release, using the "Long Road" as the arrival track with a release crossover onto the "Short Road". I.e., two releases total, one on platform 1 (the main platform) and the other for goods.

 

Perhaps you could upload the .any, I think I have an idea for removing the facing slip (and I can illustrate the other loco release I had mentioned)?

[Ray H]

Thinking as I write I wonder if it would be possible to use the traverser for the stock only and have cassettes for the locos. A train arrives and the loco runs onto its cassette. The cassette is then removed either to store or transferred to the opposite end of the traverser where it is placed between the traverser and the connection to the scenic part of the layout (replacing the empty cassette that was there and had formed the bridge between the scenic section and the traverser.

 

All (loco) cassettes would need to be the same length. A vacated cassette could either be left in place or be replaced by a loaded cassette to provide motive power for another departure (after the traverser has been re-aligned). It may give you scope to effectively store longer trains in the fiddle yard.

 

I did toy with the idea of having three cassettes - loco, stock, loco - but I think that would be too cumbersome and would not necessarily provide as much flexibility as the traverser/cassette combination.

[Blackbuck]

Ah, perhaps I was not clear. I numbered the platforms in my head from top to bottom. I didn't see that you had already numbered them. My mistake! No need to sacrifice the carriage siding. 

 

But I think you should have a dedicated goods arrival/departure track with a release, using the "Long Road" as the arrival track with a release crossover onto the "Short Road". I.e., two releases total, one on platform 1 (the main platform) and the other for goods.

 

Perhaps you could upload the .any, I think I have an idea for removing the facing slip (and I can illustrate the other loco release I had mentioned)?

 

Ah! No worries then.

 

I can and have uploaded the .any to my dropbox for your perusal. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94294688/Model_Rail/16x8d.any

 

Thinking as I write I wonder if it would be possible to use the traverser for the stock only and have cassettes for the locos. A train arrives and the loco runs onto its cassette. The cassette is then removed either to store or transferred to the opposite end of the traverser where it is placed between the traverser and the connection to the scenic part of the layout (replacing the empty cassette that was there and had formed the bridge between the scenic section and the traverser.

 

All (loco) cassettes would need to be the same length. A vacated cassette could either be left in place or be replaced by a loaded cassette to provide motive power for another departure (after the traverser has been re-aligned). It may give you scope to effectively store longer trains in the fiddle yard.

 

I did toy with the idea of having three cassettes - loco, stock, loco - but I think that would be too cumbersome and would not necessarily provide as much flexibility as the traverser/cassette combination.

 

You know, you might be on to something there. It would simplify the procedure somewhat.

 

~Mark.

[mightbe]

My attempt:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_IRw_XW4BhGTjlTMHJFUkxWREE/view?usp=sharing

 

I hope at least some of my changes here are of use--I had to delete the track in the lower part of the layout along with most of the buildings and trees to get the object count under 50. I tried to keep it as tidy as I found it, though you'll have to add most of the buildings back in. Sorry 'bout that

 

Note: the 45 degree, 900 mm radius piece of track is the datum and is hasn't moved from the version you uploaded. Everything 'South' of that is assumed to be as you had it.

 

Explanation of MPD:

*coaling à la Penzance on the track below the shed

*ash dropped in front of shed

*sanding (if applicable) on the short siding extending to the right

*servicing pits would be within the shed

*ALMOST FORGOT: I felt a turntable would be necessary for a terminus of this size and the possible locos that might arrive and I found I was able to add one into the MPD layout. Unless you're firmly opposed to one, of course.

 

Other changes: 

*throat modified

*double slip used to trap both the main platform loco release road and the goods yard

*siding extended on  "Short Road" 

*use of medium points for the goods release

 

Cons:

*storage in the shed is limited to the shed itself and the tracks immediately in front of it

*goods trains (inc. brake van) limited to 42" if allowing the loco to release itself. If a pilot is used then the train can as long as the "Long Road" less the pilot (to allow the main loco to go to the shed). The pilot can also store the brake van in the siding off the goods release road ("Short Road"). Though admittedly this seems like a convoluted solution.

*somewhat limited storage in goods yard (sadly due to the dedicated arrivals/departure track and release road)

 

I find the use of P2 for terminating services odd and would instead suggest using P2 for short departures and arrivals that don't need to run around their trains--DMUs, autocoaches, flying banana--whatever suits your fancy or era. Loco-hauled trains would all arrive on P1, and most would depart from there as well--during peak hours local loco-hauled trains can depart from P2. To keep things smooth, I would suggest that express coaches be left in P1 for cleaning etc--they probably wouldn't fit in the carriage sidings (which I imagine would chiefly store coaches for locals). If this is 1950s-60s it's conceivable that most trains will be able to use P2 anyway.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Another day, another revision to the goods yard (mainly).

• Other than having to reverse from the shed road itself I think that the ELD and associated provender are now in the best place that I can find for them.
• The lengths of the three roads around the shed might change slightly depending on what could justifiably be needed to fill them.

16x8e.png

 

I'm probably over complicating the yard with regards to the two slips but they're the best way I can think of to lay the yard out. The clearance required for a decent sized yard shunter may require the shed to be relocated slightly farther back to avoid the loco from entering it but otherwise I'm reasonably happy it.

 

~Mark.

 

Do you really need locomotives to be able to move directly from shed to goods yard? Probably quite unusual. And if you don't have that you can spread out the whole approach rather better and get rid of that slip.

 

The whole thing would look better if you could have the station on a bit of an angle rather than parallel to the edge of the board.

[Blackbuck]

Spiffy!

 

I do agree with the point about the turntable, I'd just not been able to fit it in myself. as for the rest...

 

• Shed storage: I'd imagine given its size that the actual allocation would be reasonably small so any locos on shed and out of the way between runs would be reasonably easy to accommodate.
• Shunting the yard: Yeah... That might pose some operational oddities, a quick measure of an Ivatt 2MT (Tender) with 4x 12T vans, 2x 5 plank opens, a Shocvan, an old Lima Vanfit and a Mogo with the associated Toad gives a length of about 47". Theoretically that would allow the stock to be drawn far enough to not foul the points at either end and allow for running round. Failing that a pilot would be the only logical choice other than yet another re-think of the goods yard.
• Platform usage, I hadn't thought of that The carriage siding would be indeed mainly for strengthening pieces and such rather than accommodation a whole express portion. It would seem to make sense for those to arrive in P1, be refreshed there then shunted to P2 to await departure whilst keeping P1 active on the normal locals.

As for the question of period, I'm thinking mid fifties to early sixties to give the broadest variety of stock to be justifiable on the layout.

 

I'll have a go at copying over the changes you've made mightbe into the full plan.

 

ETA

 

Sniped by Joseph_Pestell. The plan proposed by mightbe  does negate the direct access from the yard.

 

I'd rather keep the parallel layout for now though angling the approach and station proper up by 2-3 degrees would indeed result in a more aesthetic arrangement. Depending how things go that may well end up happening.

 

~Mark.

[melmerby]

It would be nice to see some of the later ideas but it seems they are secret

 

Keith

[Blackbuck]

I'll upload the revised plan this evening after some more tinkering for people to peruse.

 

Currently occupying myself with a makeshift inglenook in the loft...

 

~Mark.

[The Stationmaster]

Why isn't Platform 1 being used for freight arrivals?  It give a much long capacity and effectively if you use a siding in the yard it prevents it being used for freight handling.  (and if you use a second road in teh yard to run round a freight you are left with virtually no yard capacity.

[Blackbuck]

The only reason that I saw for not using P1 for freight arrivals was that it required a pretty hefty shunt out of the throat to enter the yard hence the separation but yes you're right about the lack of capacity otherwise.

 

ETA: Updated Plan

 

[mightbe]

How unconventional/unprototypical would it be for a goods train to arrive on the loco release road and use the loco release in the forward direction? I'm thinking if you move the headshunt there and get rid of the dedicated release you would free up so much space. That prevents hauling the train back out on the mainline--simply shunt it back and into the yard about 4-5 wagons at a time. Unfortunately goods arrivals would have to be timed around trains that need to use P1.

 

I have to admit the shed area doesn't have any obvious flow. But it seems to me that of the coaling and turning, one must happen first and the other last for optimal access to the platforms and yard.

 

Quentin

[Chimer]

OK, my go at confusing the issue - on the latest plan, why not extend the trap off the double slip back parallel to the running line to be the yard headshunt?  You could then arrive goods into platform 1's loco release loop and run round using P1 (as per Quentin's post), and pull the whole train straight back into the new headshunt.  Losing the old headshunt and the short road would give the yard more space (and fewer slips, which to my mind would be a bonus).

[Blackbuck]

I did have a tinker around with doing exactly that before turning in for the night but it raised the question of how you'd manage the task of operating the dock road without a pilot running about the yard. One possibility I suppose would be to have the train loco shunt the stock into the yard from the loop/headshunt then have the yard shunter/pilot split and re-form as needed whilst the train loco is serviced on shed.

 

~Mark.

[Blackbuck]

Well, I completely re-did the goods facilities alas to no avail. They feel worse now than they did before...

 

 

I just can't seem to get the yard to flow in one direction, which is annoying. Trawling through the OPC plan books has so far yielded little inspiration other than Barnstaple Victoria and Minehead. So, I am officially stumped.

 

~Mark.

[The Stationmaster]

Well, I completely re-did the goods facilities alas to no avail. They feel worse now than they did before...

 

16x8d.png

 

I just can't seem to get the yard to flow in one direction, which is annoying. Trawling through the OPC plan books has so far yielded little inspiration other than Barnstaple Victoria and Minehead. So, I am officially stumped.

 

~Mark.

To be a bit blunt I'm not surprised (sorry).  The reason is that I can't see exactly what you are trying to do with the goods yard - it has masses of siding space but effectively no working space for unloading wagons (other than the goods shed and coal road).  Thus what is most likely, in normal railway freight working, to be the preponderance of freight traffic has nowhere it can be loaded or unload.  The amount of siding space set aside for coal suggests a fairly small town, for example a village near where I live had siding space to handle about half a dozen coal wagons, for a population of well under 2,000.

 

So while I'm not really sure what you are trying to do with it my own inclination would be to reduce that end of the goods yard to two long sidings with room for road vehicles to get in between them (and, of course, have room to turn in between them).

 

I would the dispense totally with the idea of terminating freight trains in the goods yard - it is for the handling of freight traffic (it's not some sort of mini-marshalling yard, or is that what you want?) and do what happened in many (most?) smaller places on the real railway and terminate your inward freight train in Platform 1 which would allow the train engine to run round and then shunt the yard.  What you do really depends on what you want - the choice as I see it is either a more realistic goods yard or carry on with a sort of mini-marshalling yard.

 

Sorry to be rather blunt but perhaps you need a nudge and a chance to think about things in a slightly different way?

[Donw]

I agree with Mike a station with a single track access would most likely use the main platform for goods reception. Goods services were often planned to arrive at quieter times for passenger trains. The only issue I can see is you would have to use the main line to draw out the the wagons to transfer them to the yard.  If you really want to have a goods reception road I would place one alongside the P1 run round loop so it could share that.  That would then alllow you to revise the yard in line with Mike's comments.  Currently you have a number of short sidings of limited capacity and one long one with no visible vehicular access.

 

Don

[Blackbuck]

To be a bit blunt I'm not surprised (sorry).  The reason is that I can't see exactly what you are trying to do with the goods yard - it has masses of siding space but effectively no working space for unloading wagons (other than the goods shed and coal road).  Thus what is most likely, in normal railway freight working, to be the preponderance of freight traffic has nowhere it can be loaded or unload.  The amount of siding space set aside for coal suggests a fairly small town, for example a village near where I live had siding space to handle about half a dozen coal wagons, for a population of well under 2,000.

 

So while I'm not really sure what you are trying to do with it my own inclination would be to reduce that end of the goods yard to two long sidings with room for road vehicles to get in between them (and, of course, have room to turn in between them).

 

I would the dispense totally with the idea of terminating freight trains in the goods yard - it is for the handling of freight traffic (it's not some sort of mini-marshalling yard, or is that what you want?) and do what happened in many (most?) smaller places on the real railway and terminate your inward freight train in Platform 1 which would allow the train engine to run round and then shunt the yard.  What you do really depends on what you want - the choice as I see it is either a more realistic goods yard or carry on with a sort of mini-marshalling yard.

 

Sorry to be rather blunt but perhaps you need a nudge and a chance to think about things in a slightly different way?

 

 

I agree with Mike a station with a single track access would most likely use the main platform for goods reception. Goods services were often planned to arrive at quieter times for passenger trains. The only issue I can see is you would have to use the main line to draw out the the wagons to transfer them to the yard.  If you really want to have a goods reception road I would place one alongside the P1 run round loop so it could share that.  That would then alllow you to revise the yard in line with Mike's comments.  Currently you have a number of short sidings of limited capacity and one long one with no visible vehicular access.

 

Don

 

No need to! Striking a balance between realism and operational playability has always been a point of content for myself. The main idea running through my head as to be able to separate the individual types of traffic from one and other however this in hindsight seems somewhat daft...

 

---

 

With regards to a reception road, would you pilot the train off with a resident loco and release the train loco that way or connect the reception road via a three way to the existing run-round loop?

 

~Mark

[mightbe]

I would say that it depends on whether you really want to build a headshunt long enough to drag the whole train clear--a three way might look a bit "busy" for the feel I believe you're going for but I think it would be the more appropriate option. Nor would it take away much room for your goods yard.

 

For the yard, it would be best if it 'works' solely in one direction, i.e. everything accessed from left-to-right. There's an excellent layout on RMWeb based on the GWR yard at Plymouth, Small Plymouth Goods, which could be a useful starting point for a rethink. Long, spaced out tracks, a loading crane, goods shed, a short loading platform even--all features that have appeared in your designs. If you flip it and omit the cattle dock/runaround bit that could be quite simple and workable. Coal facilities would still need to be worked out.

 

Quentin