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The White Rabbit

NER 1903 Autocar

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So when was the number of doors changed on the side? Very early on?

Many thanks

Richard

 

1909-10, when the single doors were replaced with double doors for a luggage compartment.

 

The Wolseley engine had come earlier, I believe in 1904, as the Napier unit was too underpowered. The additional clerestory vent at the engine end and the cooling apparatus along the clerestory roof were added to try to keep the more powerful Wolseley engine cool. A Christmas card was published in 1904 showing 3170 in this condition, the livery now being 'poppy red & ivory'. 

 

The only pictures I have so far seen of an Autocar in NE days without the clerestory vent and cooling pipes(?) along the roof are the early ones of 3171 in NE Lake. Whether single or double door, I suggest that in poppy red and ivory they should feature this cooling apparatus.

 

To be fair, I suspect 3 of the 4 pictures I posted may be of the same model (that on Runswick Bay), The Marske layout is apparently set c.1910-1920, so the double door condition is a fit for that timeframe.

 

I gather Runswick Bay has passed into private hands; a pity from my point of view, as I never managed to see it in the flesh.

Edited by Edwardian
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Very good information for the technically-inclined here, which shows the second ‘power train’ and cooling arrangement very clearly. https://www.wolseleycarclubnz.co.nz/railway.html

 

Ironically, the photograph of 3171 used on the site shows it as it was with the Napier engine installed.  However, so did Wolseley's own advertising! 

 

The drawings used on the site come from an article in The Tramway and Railway World, 12 May 1904*. A plan view in the article shows the cooling pipes (I am going to call them pipes!) on the clerestory roof. These are the only drawings that I have seen that show this feature, though it is evident in all the photographs of the cars with the Wolseley engines on board.

 

The Wolseley engine is fairly well documented in drawings and photographs.  Not so the Napier.  if anyone comes up with an illustration of that, I'll be pleased and surprised in equal measure.

 

*EDIT: These drawings also reproduced in Motor Traction, 15 September 1906. 

post-25673-0-96003400-1542967255.jpeg

Edited by Edwardian
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So when was the number of doors changed on the side? Very early on?

Many thanks

Richard

 

There was a refit in 1908 to enlarge the 'gangway' to a 'vestibule' with double doors, this was at the cost of a pair of seats and reglazing the passenger saloon from six 'long' windows to five and 'a half'. 

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To be fair, I suspect 3 of the 4 pictures I posted may be of the same model (that on Runswick Bay), The Marske layout is apparently set c.1910-1920, so the double door condition is a fit for that timeframe.

 

I gather Runswick Bay has passed into private hands; a pity from my point of view, as I never managed to see it in the flesh.

 

The first three are my photos of Robin Taylor's scratchbuilt (7mm) model, shown on Runswick Bay (x1) and Ravensbeck (x2) courtesy of the Keighley Model Railway Club who helped arrange the 'photoshoots'. Robin built this while the autocar was still relatively unknown. The Medley Models kit was the first kit, then in 2009 my father and I measured up the autocar for Allen Doherty at Worsley Works, who has done the brass etches in several scales. 

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The first three are my photos of Robin Taylor's scratchbuilt (7mm) model, shown on Runswick Bay (x1) and Ravensbeck (x2) courtesy of the Keighley Model Railway Club who helped arrange the 'photoshoots'. Robin built this while the autocar was still relatively unknown. The Medley Models kit was the first kit, then in 2009 my father and I measured up the autocar for Allen Doherty at Worsley Works, who has done the brass etches in several scales. 

 

Apologies for the appropriation!  At least the 4th photo was mine!

 

 

There was a refit in 1908 to enlarge the 'gangway' to a 'vestibule' with double doors, this was at the cost of a pair of seats and reglazing the passenger saloon from six 'long' windows to five and 'a half'. 

 

Apparently the move to the Cawood branch was summer 1908 and the change in doors was subsequent to that. I read somewhere 1909-10, but certainly after they left the Scarborough-Filey service.  Would be happy for any corrections/more precise info, however.

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No problem with you using the photos, I took them for use in our publicity. 

 

According to the plan below, taken from an original NER plan book, courtesy Mike Grocock, the revised design was dated December 1908, I suppose depending how long the refit lasted it might have been 1909 before one/both was back in traffic. But the original plan is dated 1904, which suggests to me the date on the plan is entry into service/being signed off as fit to run rather than registration of a plan/design. Does anyone know which date would be used? 

 

post-16840-0-60323500-1543143456_thumb.jpg

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No problem with you using the photos, I took them for use in our publicity. 

 

According to the plan below, taken from an original NER plan book, courtesy Mike Grocock, the revised design was dated December 1908, I suppose depending how long the refit lasted it might have been 1909 before one/both was back in traffic. But the original plan is dated 1904, which suggests to me the date on the plan is entry into service/being signed off as fit to run rather than registration of a plan/design. Does anyone know which date would be used? 

 

attachicon.gifPlan 1908-31© MG.jpg

 

That is helpful, thanks.  I read somewhere that the cars were transferred to the Cawood branch in the summer of 1908, so it seems that some time spent there revealed to the management the need to make provision for luggage compartments.  Whether the work was completed before the end of that year or not, it was there or thereabouts.

 

Odd that the residents of Cawood would have more luggage than those travelling to and from Scarborough!

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Without a luggage area, it must have been a blasted nuisance for people with ‘dogs, bicycles, and perambulators’ ........ just like all too many modern trains, in fact!

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Without a luggage area, it must have been a blasted nuisance for people with ‘dogs, bicycles, and perambulators’ ........ just like all too many modern trains, in fact!

 

plus ça change ....

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That is helpful, thanks.  I read somewhere that the cars were transferred to the Cawood branch in the summer of 1908, so it seems that some time spent there revealed to the management the need to make provision for luggage compartments.  Whether the work was completed before the end of that year or not, it was there or thereabouts.

 

Odd that the residents of Cawood would have more luggage than those travelling to and from Scarborough!

Day trippers to the seaside?

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Day trippers to the seaside?

 

Or possibly mass migration from Selby!

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Or possibly mass migration from Selby!

Without any stuff!

And then I remembered back when I were a lad up north we were lucky to have cold cardboard to live in. Had to wake three hours before going to bed and ate cold gravel. ...,but we were happy.

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I've just realised that 'Hastings' unit style diesel-electric engine compartment is very roomy for the NER's original petrol-electric equipment - as compared to the contemporary 1900s Tilling-Stevens road motor bus which had its petrol engine under the bonnet and the electrical gear underslung.

 

The Wiki T-S site is interesting about the decline of the petrol-electric system (until its revival in recent hybrid electric vehicles).

It was originally sold as an easy transfer to driving a horseless vehicle, bypassing the need to master clutch and crash gearbox. But the War Office would not approve the T-S system for use at the Front in WW I because of its electrical gear being vulnerable to mud compared to the use of a clutch and crash gearbox.

By the end of the war there were a lot army drivers experienced in driving the flood of ex WD vehicles released onto the Civvy streets.

Petrol-electric traction for road traction was quite literally overtaken by the more sprightly mechanical systems and by the mid 1930s T-S had adopted clutch and gearbox transission for petrol and diesel .

T-S were were also into trolley buses in the 1930s but, in retrospect, seem to have missed a trick in offering a vehicle with an auxillary engine for use beyond the wires - as Renault did in France.

dh

Edited by runs as required
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The other 'big-issues' for PE, as opposed to PM, in light vehicles, railcars, carries, cars, lorries, busses etc at the time were two-fold:

 

- weight, in that once gearboxes and, just as importantly clutches, advanced far enough, the E part of the PE was heavier than the mechanical transmission; and,

 

- it took a few years to get the engine controls integrated with the dynamo controls in a way that allowed the most to be got out of the engines when in the hands of a non-technical driver. In many cases early PE seem to have been operated with the engine running at a practically constant speed, which is fuel-efficient, but not necessarily power/weight efficient.

 

There were, of course, PE 2ft gauge locos used by the British Army during WW1, the French had Crochat PEs in both SG and 2ft, and the Austro-Hungarian Army had PE road/rail tractors and trailers designed by Porsche, which were the progenitors of the Austrian (GEBUS) DEs of the 1920s and onwards that ultimately led ultimately to the DE versions of the Fliegender Hamburger.

 

During the pre-WW1 period, there was also another PE bus rival to the T-S design. T-S was a DC transmission, but the Durtnall rival had a 3-phase transmission, which he had also applied to a car I think.

 

Its all very, very interesting, but to get your head around the history of PE/DE its necessary to look at US, British and European designs, spanning rail, road, and shipping, because the top engineers in the field (a) knew what was going on across the world, and (b) worked across all modes.

Edited by Nearholmer
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Mechanical transmissions were not too far behind PE systems. The usual mechanical (semi-automatic) transmission used in most British DMU's was developed for WW1 tanks.

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Changing the subject, I am very proud to announce that the autocar's restoration has won the Manisty award. This is the Heritage Railway Association’s most prestigious award, awarded by the Board of the HRA on an occasional basis for an exceptional and outstanding contribution to railway preservation. It's a much appreciated recognition of the skills and efforts of our volunteers. 

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Richly deserved award as an "exceptional and outstanding contribution to railway preservation".

 

Dava

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And now some running dates... Basically, Wednesdays Easter - July and in September together with some extra days that first week in September. And the first three Sundays in November.  https://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk/timetable/timetable 

 

News on visits elsewhere when I can give you the details. 

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Two photos of the Awards presentation - I can now reveal we also won the Modern Traction Award, courtesy Rail Express

1767104289_ManistyawardR(RJ).jpg.a5a52c5bf83efb765d3e7c52af45039d.jpg

Photo courtesy Robin Jones of Heritage Railway magazine. 

 

1095689631_ModernTractionaward(RJ).jpg.96b5873263a8e1f66f8cb28834787043.jpg

(And thanks to the un-named person who took this on one of our member's phones). 

 

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So a 1903 autocar won a modern traction award? Love it :D

 

Well done to all involved.

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9 hours ago, Bucoops said:

So a 1903 autocar won a modern traction award? Love it :D

 

Well done to all involved.

 

If you look at the parts list, there is quite a lot of modern traction in there, the chassis & power unit date from 2013/4.

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29 minutes ago, Dava said:

 

If you look at the parts list, there is quite a lot of modern traction in there, the chassis & power unit date from 2013/4.

 

Oh I know but it's still amusing :)

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On 20/02/2019 at 08:19, Bucoops said:

So a 1903 autocar won a modern traction award? Love it :D

 

Well done to all involved.

 

That's why I model 1902.

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Last November, our engineer queried whether we have a new record as the only train to be featured in both Modern Railways and Heritage Railway at the same time! 

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