No wires - System specification

[shortliner]

means that is not afflicted by dasfingerpokenmitkursundschweren.

But isn't that required as a normal part of the fun? "Mit der spitzensparken und louden popenflasch" as a standard accessory

[raymw]

Hi Paul,
 

Personally I'd have a switch to change between track or socket for charging so it could be run on a DCC layout too.

So, you'd need the loco pick-up complication that Chris is trying to eliminate, and you'd need insulated wheels? So what advantage would you have, other than, say, long term stay-alive? I thought there was a usable UK version of rc - Deltang  http://www.deltang.co.uk/  I reckon something like that, but through dcc would do, but an ir system would be cheaper for a small/indoor layout.

 

I think, at this stage, it may still be necessary to mash things together as a home-brew system, to keep things within a reasonable cost (reasonable - depends on a ton of other parameters)

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[0_gauge_novice]

Hi,

 

I remember about 9 years back there was a Peco film with a guy that built a GWR layout and used some kind wireless technique to control the locos.

 

I remembered how the layout was named and I found a link.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsbodmin1.html

 

Cheers

Andreas

[PaulRhB]

So, you'd need the loco pick-up complication that Chris is trying to eliminate, and you'd need insulated wheels? So what advantage would you have, other than, say, long term stay-alive?

I'm looking at converting existing locos where that's already there so it doesn't complicate it at all, thinking of Dapol Terriers too

The advantage is you can have one or the other OR both depending on taste it doesn't need to be set.

If it was supplied with a plug I'd just add in the switch to give me the option I agree totally not being dependant on track is the best idea but if I was using Lithium batteries I'd use the pickup option with any shed area where locos berth energised to top them up. It's an easy mod if the system is supplied as you suggest.

 

I thought there was a usable UK version of rc - Deltang

Yes and I've got one for 7/8ths and 009 projects but it can't necessarily power a sound unit as there's no space to fit it in in smaller scales although the mylocosound ones are fine for 7/8ths size.

[0_gauge_novice]

Found it

 

http://www.redarrowcontrol.co.uk/index.html

 

Cheers

Andreas

[fallen]

We already have battery powered radio control in 009 locos, so doing 7mm should not be too difficult.

 

Here is one, post 138:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64616-battery-poweredradio-controlled-locos/page-6

 

Here is another, post 176:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64616-battery-poweredradio-controlled-locos/page-8

 

Frank

[raymw]

fwiw, I came into 7mm a few years ago (about 14yrs, iirc) specifically to design/build/resell a loco control system and sound - 7mm being big enough to jam in a few electronic components. But, soon afterwards I found it was already being done, so I lost some incentive in pursuing my original thoughts. I have made a few decoders based on Paul Harman's design, http://www.dccdiy.org.uk/ and a controller/command station based on the one from Ernesto Pareja   http://dcctrains.netne.net/Command%20Station1.html It all worked fine, no need for me to reinvent the wheel.

Although it was a few years ago, if I decided to get back into it, then I think it would be fairly simple to adapt the circuits to transmit the signalling side of it via ir or radio, instead of via the track. The loco decoder could be made considerably smaller, of course, but my pcb dil version is small enough.

I am not impressed with any of the steam sound chips that I have heard (or other effects, such as smoke/steam) so far, and I would be looking at doing that some other way, if I could be bothered.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

 

ps - I reckon there is little point in asking for specifications, everybody will most likely want something different, but I think most folk want to get away from direct power via the rails.

[55H]

Reply from S cab I will have to do better tonight than the £2.60 I won yesterday on the lotto add import costs cost of decoder and the dreaded VAT

 

I believe you can satisfy battery power supply requirements with battery packs and a compatible on-board battery charger that can be supplied (or imported) in the UK.

Use a 4S LiPo battery pack (14.4 volts) with 2 amp capability and sufficient energy storage.

 

You already have the decoder.

 

The missing components are radio transmitter (throttle) and loco radio receiver that connects to the Loksound decoder. S-CAB does this, but dealing with UK radio regulations and licensing is beyond my resources. The second task I face is reverse engineering the Loksound 4XL in order to make the radio connection. So time ago, I investigated a small Loksound and did not go ahead because the client had only one decoder and no way for me to recover engineering costs.

 

Given a large enough order, I could supply S-CAB throttle and receivers with radio frequency that is legal in Europe, but you would be responsible for UK radio certification. So far, no one in Europe has found it economical to obtain radio certification. I suspect you will reach the same decision. (I don’t know European requirements, but licensing in the US costs about $10,000).

 

The second issue is not too difficult, but you would also need to provide a couple of 4XLs for my reverse engineering effort. (No charge for my engineering labor.) Once the method of connecting radio receiver to  4XL is completed, I can provide radio receivers and you should procure decoders locally and wire the connection.

 

I need a commitment of US$2,500 to go ahead. Estimated OEM prices to you are $100 per throttle and $40 per receiver (decreasing with quantity).

 

Neil Stanton.

[Giles]

If people are serious about gunning up on the subject, there are fifty or more pages on DelTang, including the viability of driving decoders via RC, batteries etc. on the Freerails website. Thus far I've used the receivers on lorries very happily, and many people are using them on locos.

[55H]

 

 

 

If people are serious about gunning up on the subject, there are fifty or more pages on DelTang, including the viability of driving decoders via RC, batteries etc. on the Freerails website. Thus far I've used the receivers on lorries very happily, and many people are using them on locos.

 

The TX21 previously mentioned is  I suspect a version of the DX21  the problem is sound the current sound cards are too big to fit in O gage locos and add considerably to the cost plus they have generic sound

 

[81A Oldoak]

Chris

 

What's the loco?

 

Cheers

Simon

Agenoria kit of the Kerr Stuart Victory 0-6-0T.

[Andy Reichert]

I always wonder what the supposed clever solution is to having 200 locos always charged ready to run, but only space for 10 at any time on the track.?

 

Andy (engineers hat on)

[PaulRhB]

Storage racks where they sit on track or in metal cassettes that are powered up for the charge time for the required time after each session?

I doubt there's many in the UK with 200 locos they run regularly.

[chaz]

Joking aside it seems to me that what is wanted is an enterprising individual or small company to take on the role that Lenz performed in getting DCC off the ground. However it is worth reflecting that DCC has developed and the market has grown from small beginnings. Any "dead track" system is going to have DCC as its chief competitor in a way that DCC itself didn't have.

[flexible_coupling]

Absolutely off-the-top-of-my-head... one wonders how many degrees of separation there would be from utilizing some kind of bluetooth connected micro arduino-style module for both "decoder", power-control and transmission. Perhaps segregate sound as a 'add-it-in-later' element for just a moment. The big stumbles (and I plead pure ignorance to not twigging on RC compatibilty - I know that is becoming an issue here in Australia and - evidently - is a huge hurdle in the UK) seem to be the size of the gubbins going into the loco and the transmission media. Bluetooth 4.0 can kick around 20 metres, is available and "safe" to use everywhere... and the glorious thing is that a twenty-quid touchscreen mobile phone or ipod could very conceivably run the entire show...

 

As my very quick squiz the other day suggested - removing the PCB and plastic mount atop the motor in the Ixion Fowler (for the purpose of the exercise - let's set that as a benchmark for a squishy install in O) allows the medium sized battery that the S-Cab crew offer, plus a slim PCB. Would be quite comfortable to place an antenna and possibly another small auxiliary PCB elsewhere in the loco - there is a free space in the gearbox-cover thing at the front that would require minor and invisible work to the main hood casting to clear. 

 

The Arduino focus group offer a quite large (and obviously not useful in this example) Bluetooth enabled proto board - http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardBT?from=Main.ArduinoBoardBluetooth. I plucked the Arduino product family out of thin air as I have a tiny bit of previous experience fiddling with it at a toy-like level... but I know that it allows a number of properties like PWM natively and can be programmed by a nonce like me. Dig a little deeper and you find this little board - http://redbearlab.com/blendmicro/ - which, for a "DIY"/non-specific unit, is VERY close to the kind of working dimensions that would suit. I will dig and quite likely buy a few little Arduino boards to test some ideas out on.

 

 

 

I'm just going to add at the bottom here a small disclaimer. I am in NO WAY any kind of expert on any of this kind of stuff.... I like playing with this kind of stuff and learning, and that's all I'm aiming for. I'm not so egotistical as to plan to reinvent the wheel, and I've done no research at all into other people's efforts using bluetooth (I'm sure I've read at a passing glance about it previously, years back)... my curiousity is my own!!

[Simond]

This Red Bear thing looks extremely simple to implement to run a loco from batteries. I'm not an expert either, but I think either a Li-poly series battery, or a single 18650 cell with appropriate DC-DC converter, and an H bridge connected to a pair of the PWM outputs, and you should be able to drive your loco by Bluetooth. Programming at the loco end should not be too challenging.

 

I don't know how they facilitate the programming of the smartphone to get the human interface to work and that could be pricy/difficult/frustrating.

 

It may be possible to program the Red Bear thing to output compliant DCC signals thus allowing direct wireless control of a decoder.

 

Still, looks interesting.

 

Thanks

Simon

[flexible_coupling]

This Red Bear thing looks extremely simple to implement to run a loco from batteries. I'm not an expert either, but I think either a Li-poly series battery, or a single 18650 cell with appropriate DC-DC converter, and an H bridge connected to a pair of the PWM outputs, and you should be able to drive your loco by Bluetooth. Programming at the loco end should not be too challenging.

 

I don't know how they facilitate the programming of the smartphone to get the human interface to work and that could be pricy/difficult/frustrating.

 

It may be possible to program the Red Bear thing to output compliant DCC signals thus allowing direct wireless control of a decoder.

 

Still, looks interesting.

 

Thanks

Simon

 

I haven't dug into it, but I'd be surprised in this day-and-age if one couldn't come close to a freebie or cheap cookie-cutter template style Android app that could be used to fire one of a dozen different string commands over Bluetooth to a receiver (such as the Red Bear-esque module in a loco). I do think I'll put in a few hours of investigation into this.

 

I don't see a scenario where I'd have more than 2 locos live and moving simultaneously on a layout, and having a pair of low-cost smartphones in holsters by a layout - one "cab" per loco in use - seems eminently possible and very reasonable for people with small collections and lightweight operating needs (like myself)....

[davetheroad]

I am currently building a 00 scale layout that is wire free with no power to the tracks. The plan is to own up to 24 or so locos with up to 12 'live' on a 16 x 8 roundy roundy. Points will be manual control. Steam era gives me lots of nice tenders to put the gubbins in.

 

I am using Deltang equipment, two transmitters each capable of controlling up to 12 'live' locos. These cost £58 each built or £25 in kit form. They are hand held and simple so i can control a loco without looking at the transmitter. The receivers are small, 21.5 x 10.6mm for a 1Amp 13 volt chip and you can get up to 3amps at 18 volts.

 

i use Lithium polymer batteries and can get up to 2 hours run time between recharges. Enough for a dozen or so running sessions. The batteries are recharged between sessions with a lipo charger. Typical recharge time 30 to 60 minutes.

 

I have converted 2 locos so far which involes stripping out all the pickup system and so isolating the loco from the track. This means the loco can be used on a 'live' traditional DC or DCC layout.

 

As an example the little Hornby Midland 4-4-0 will happily haul 8 coaches at 60mph and even managed 14 coaches in 1 test. Probably because of the traction tyres. The Hornby Railroad Duke of Gloucester powers round with 12 coaches at over 70pmh.

 

I have been track laying all summer and hope to finish the fiddle yard in the next day or so. Then it will be an extensive period of testing various battery combinations so I can establish how many amps the locos draw both light engine and under normal full load. i have the chips for another 6 conversions and 12 locos waiting for rebuild.

 

As for developing international standards and specifications. I doubt it will happen because the manufacturers have invested so much in DCC. A new system offering a simple way to control trains  will alarm them.

 

With new emerging battery technologies, they always seem to take longer to emerge than expected, run times of several hours or even longer should be possible. 

[Simond]

Dave

 

I know there are threads about the Deltang on RMWeb, so I won't bog this one down, but I think the attraction of the red bear is the potential to use existing DCC decoders (with sound, lights, whatever) with on-board power and a receiver. I don't know if the Deltang will do this, though I suspect there are some clever souls working on it.

 

I guess that in principle, you could have a jumper or switch on the loco to select its operation mode, probably not as simple as DCC/DC operation, but almost.

 

I'm not at all sure that I feel the need to go down the R/C route as I positively enjoy wiring layouts ( do I need therapy?) but I can see that it potentially offers some real advantages.

 

I think I come back to my initial list, as edited / added to - it needs "better than DCC functionality" at pricing & convenience comparable to DCC today.

 

Watching with interest.

Simon

[Andy Reichert]

I'm looking at converting existing locos where that's already there so it doesn't complicate it at all, thinking of Dapol Terriers too

The advantage is you can have one or the other OR both depending on taste it doesn't need to be set.

If it was supplied with a plug I'd just add in the switch to give me the option I agree totally not being dependant on track is the best idea but if I was using Lithium batteries I'd use the pickup option with any shed area where locos berth energised to top them up. It's an easy mod if the system is supplied as you suggest.

 

Yes and I've got one for 7/8ths and 009 projects but it can't necessarily power a sound unit as there's no space to fit it in in smaller scales although the mylocosound ones are fine for 7/8ths size.

 

It's the fact that model locos need to be insulated for 2-rail that makes scratch building chassis and wheels so much of a pain. And it adds considerably to the manufacturing cost of RTR locos.

 

You are using a special case to justify a general case. And it doesn't work that way. If models were built economically just for battery power, you wouldn't have the flexibility you claim.

[Andy Reichert]

Storage racks where they sit on track or in metal cassettes that are powered up for the charge time for the required time after each session?

I doubt there's many in the UK with 200 locos they run regularly.

 

A charging rack, or track charging implies that the charging mode current limiting circuit (extra cost and space)  is now built into each loco. Either that or the rack has a separate circuit for each loco, which would make the rack complicated and more expensive.

 

Then there is the space for the charging rack, which would be left out and on most of the time, unless you could predict at least a day ahead of when you wanted to operate. In the UK, most people barely have the space for a tiny layout (or module). I doubt many spouses would appreciate the concept.

 

And finally, while not many may have 200 locos, most modellers in the UK DO have several times the number of locomotives than the space/ time they have on their layout, to place/use them. So charging the extras to be "on call" is going to be an issue for most modellers.

[Simond]

14 pages on this subject at

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64616-battery-poweredradio-controlled-locos/

 

And

 

http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45

 

Best

Simon

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

At the system specification design stage no assumptions should be made of the technologies to be used.

So avoid what may currently be used (rc, ir or anything else) and preconceived like phones and the like.

I say these things as a very long in the tooth and now well retired professional design engineer.

This is a sound and proven approach, and avoids getting bogged down in an endless debate about various tech preferences or biasses.

 

Major aspect that has already been poked at but is worth making explicit is permanent readiness for use. I don't care whether it is one loco or a hundred on the layout, the established expectation is 'switch on the control gear, and the trains are ready to run'. No need for the user to do anything more to ensure immediate readiness for operation, whether run every day or half a dozen times a year.

 

Another established expectation: a loco removed fromthe tracks, absolutely will not run, no user action required to ensure this. No models getting damaged by running inside packaging or trundling off a storage shelf.

 

Free choice of recharging techniques, and to include 'complete hands off and happens automatically without user intervention' options.

 

Control quality and on track performance to meet or exceed the upper quartile of current 'best control method' achievement.

[raymw]

To add to the specification - it has to cost less than a fiver, and be available next week.

[Simond]

I do like the "immediately ready to use" criterion, but, I think it is reasonable to qualify that with "providing you remembered to charge it".

 

Having an automatic dead-man might be a challenge. If the user is allowed to turn it off, it is easy to implement, but a system that must automatically recognise an environment in which it is permitted and expected to operate from any in which it must not, mmm.

 

I know, if we put power on the track.... Oh no, wait a minute...