No wires - System specification

[NorthHighlander]

A very interesting set of discussions since we last posted....

Just to let you know that our initial products are now with the suppliers prior to beta in December with the aim of releasing first products in January.

I haven't shown you our new controller yet... here's the 0201 Direct Controller..

Thanks to Steve Flint for featuring Protocab in Railway Modeller December ... as a result of the excellent interest we are now bringing our new website forward and we have now uploaded the first pages. We will be adding the rest this week, including details of the product range.

Club Protocab members will be getting an update newsletter this week, so I'd better not say more before they have had the newsletter first!

(Re Chaz's thread earlier in this page... we've already implemented 6 of the 8 points in your wish list and we're working on the other two!)

Best  regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Glenrhu

Bowermadden

Scotland

 

Developers of the Protocab battery power+wireless control model railway control system

[chaz]

A very interesting set of discussions since we last posted....

Just to let you know that our initial products are now with the suppliers prior to beta in December with the aim of releasing first products in January.

I haven't shown you our new controller yet... here's the 0201 Direct Controller..

Display with logo 50pc.PNG

Thanks to Steve Flint for featuring Protocab in Railway Modeller December ... as a result of the excellent interest we are now bringing our new website forward and we have now uploaded the first pages. We will be adding the rest this week, including details of the product range.

Club Protocab members will be getting an update newsletter this week, so I'd better not say more before they have had the newsletter first!

(Re Chaz's thread earlier in this page... we've already implemented 6 of the 8 points in your wish list and we're working on the other two!)

Best  regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Glenrhu

Bowermadden

Scotland

 

Developers of the Protocab battery power+wireless control model railway control system

 

Good stuff and I am pleased to read that you are getting close to fulfilling my spec!    Please post a link to your website as soon as it is ready to view.

 

Looking forward to seeing what's in your range and how it all works.

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

A very interesting set of discussions since we last posted....

Just to let you know that our initial products are now with the suppliers prior to beta in December with the aim of releasing first products in January.

I haven't shown you our new controller yet... here's the 0201 Direct Controller..

Display with logo 50pc.PNG

Thanks to Steve Flint for featuring Protocab in Railway Modeller December ... as a result of the excellent interest we are now bringing our new website forward and we have now uploaded the first pages. We will be adding the rest this week, including details of the product range.

Club Protocab members will be getting an update newsletter this week, so I'd better not say more before they have had the newsletter first!

(Re Chaz's thread earlier in this page... we've already implemented 6 of the 8 points in your wish list and we're working on the other two!)

Best  regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Glenrhu

Bowermadden

Scotland

 

Developers of the Protocab battery power+wireless control model railway control system

I shall be watching this development very closely.

[Robin2]

I've just realized that one issue seems to have been overlooked in this Thread.

 

I have radio control in my N-Gauge locos ONLY because I want them to be battery powered to eliminate the hand-of-god. Without a powered track the only way to control the locos is with wireless.

 

However as you move to larger scales it is easier to get reliable running with track power - I can't imagine that indoor track powered O gauge locos would be any less reliable than full sized electric trains. Garden railways might be different.

 

In other words the trains with plenty of space for batteries don't need them.

 

...R

[PaulRhB]

I've just realized that one issue seems to have been overlooked in this Thread.

 

However as you move to larger scales it is easier to get reliable running with track power - I can't imagine that indoor track powered O gauge locos would be any less reliable than full sized electric trains. Garden railways might be different.

 

In other words the trains with plenty of space for batteries don't need them.

 

...R

Well with the larger scales you need more power feeds as the distances and current are usually bigger so RC lessens wiring and it's cost there compared to smaller scales

Many do run the larger scales in the garden simply because of the space for large radii.

[81A Oldoak]

I've just realized that one issue seems to have been overlooked in this Thread.

 

I have radio control in my N-Gauge locos ONLY because I want them to be battery powered to eliminate the hand-of-god. Without a powered track the only way to control the locos is with wireless.

 

However as you move to larger scales it is easier to get reliable running with track power - I can't imagine that indoor track powered O gauge locos would be any less reliable than full sized electric trains. Garden railways might be different.

 

In other words the trains with plenty of space for batteries don't need them.

 

...R

I'm unconvinced by this argument. A great many 0 Gauge layouts are of the micro-variety running with short 4-coupled chassis that are notoriously sensitive to electrical interruptions even with some flexibility in the chassis. These layouts demand slow and responsive running hence why some people put a lot effort into cramming "stay alive" equipment into their DCC fitted locos.

[Andy Reichert]

I'm unconvinced by this argument. A great many 0 Gauge layouts are of the micro-variety running with short 4-coupled chassis that are notoriously sensitive to electrical interruptions even with some flexibility in the chassis. These layouts demand slow and responsive running hence why some people put a lot effort into cramming "stay alive" equipment into their DCC fitted locos.

 

As per my previous earlier post, most unreliability is due to poor mechanisms/motors, more than it is to fundamentally poor wheel/rail pick-up, which itself is often due to poor mechanical design/implementation.

 

Fortunately we have the examples of all the many layouts operating simultaneously for the spectacularly reliable 3 day annual USA NMRA National Train Shows, and similar shows for each of the NMRA Divisional area annual conventions.  The whole USA major MR hobby "movement" of "Operations" in HO, and even N, is so successful, basically because the RTR models are nowadays so predictably reliable. Even the much transported and unexpectedly mixed "modular" meet trains and track modules perform almost flawlessly, just minutes after being set up.

 

Daily attendance at the National shows easily exceeds 25,000, and CNN and the local TV stations usually post segements, so any poor performance would get a lot of bad press. But there isn't any.

 

Andy

[davetheroad]

As per my previous earlier post, most unreliability is due to poor mechanisms/motors, more than it is to fundamentally poor wheel/rail pick-up, which itself is often due to poor mechanical design/implementation.

 

Fortunately we have the examples of all the many layouts operating simultaneously for the spectacularly reliable 3 day annual USA NMRA National Train Shows, and similar shows for each of the NMRA Divisional area annual conventions.  The whole USA major MR hobby "movement" of "Operations" in HO, and even N, is so successful, basically because the RTR models are nowadays so predictably reliable. Even the much transported and unexpectedly mixed "modular" meet trains and track modules perform almost flawlessly, just minutes after being set up.

 

Daily attendance at the National shows easily exceeds 25,000, and CNN and the local TV stations usually post segements, so any poor performance would get a lot of bad press. But there isn't any.

 

Andy

Option 1 - fix the mechanical/electical issues etc

 

Option 2 - put radio control and batteries in the locomotive.

 

Which is easier?

 

I suggest users are seeking solutions to their problems, rather than the suggestion that they and their equipment are somehow inadequate and inferior.

[Kev_Lewis]

Please post a link to your website as soon as it is ready to view.

 

http://www.protocab.com/

[chaz]

I've just realized that one issue seems to have been overlooked in this Thread.

 

I have radio control in my N-Gauge locos ONLY because I want them to be battery powered to eliminate the hand-of-god. Without a powered track the only way to control the locos is with wireless.

 

However as you move to larger scales it is easier to get reliable running with track power - I can't imagine that indoor track powered O gauge locos would be any less reliable than full sized electric trains. Garden railways might be different.

 

In other words the trains with plenty of space for batteries don't need them.

 

...R

 

Hmm. Try operating an O gauge layout at a show for two days and you might change your mind. You make a good point, the greater mass of larger models helps a lot, and compensation and springing also play their part. Applying a trace of graphite to the rail tops also seems to work wonders, but once the public flood into the hall stirring up all that nasty dust the odd frustrating and illusion-destroying stall seems inevitable. A keep-alive is very effective, and I am seriously considering fitting this to all my locos, with the possible exception of the bogie diesels - which hardly need it. Battery powered RC might well be the ultimate solution.

[chaz]

A very interesting set of discussions since we last posted....

Just to let you know that our initial products are now with the suppliers prior to beta in December with the aim of releasing first products in January.

I haven't shown you our new controller yet... here's the 0201 Direct Controller..

Display with logo 50pc.PNG

Thanks to Steve Flint for featuring Protocab in Railway Modeller December ... as a result of the excellent interest we are now bringing our new website forward and we have now uploaded the first pages. We will be adding the rest this week, including details of the product range.

Club Protocab members will be getting an update newsletter this week, so I'd better not say more before they have had the newsletter first!

(Re Chaz's thread earlier in this page... we've already implemented 6 of the 8 points in your wish list and we're working on the other two!)

Best  regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Glenrhu

Bowermadden

Scotland

 

Developers of the Protocab battery power+wireless control model railway control system

 

I have just had a look at your website and what there is of it (early days, I know) is very encouraging.

 

I hope you dont mind if I ask a few questions and make a few points here, on open forum.

 

• You say that to control a loco you press its button - does that mean that the number of locos is limited to the number of buttons?
• I note the control knob is turned from a centre off to get the direction of travel - will there be an "off-notch"?
• over what range will the control work?
• will the receiver need to be wired directly to the motor or will it be possible to power a DCC decoder?
• batteries are obviously important and their physical size crucial - I await details - will you be supplying and will there be a choice?

That's probably enough questions for now.

 

and if your answer is "all in good time" - I can wait!

 

Chaz

[Giles]

I spend a lot of time (initially) fettle get my locos to ensure they run well at very low shunting speeds, and have reliable pick-ups. None-the-less, once In a blue moon, I do get a stall.... The only loco which is completely impervious to this, and gives text-book perfect performance 100% of the time is my Ixion Fowler that is fitted with 'stay-alive'.

I grant that RC would cure this problem entirely, but I have yet to see the same controllability at very slow speeds (and then across the full speed range) that I am getting from DCC. I do use DelTang RC in my lorries my layout, so I'm not unfamiliar with the systems and their characteristics. (And have been following RC in locos for a few years)

 

I have high hopes that factors like this will improve over time (as they have over the past few years) but as yet, it is still not quite comparable in all aspects of performance for me......

[davetheroad]

I spend a lot of time (initially) fettle get my locos to ensure they run well at very low shunting speeds, and have reliable pick-ups. None-the-less, once In a blue moon, I do get a stall.... The only loco which is completely impervious to this, and gives text-book perfect performance 100% of the time is my Ixion Fowler that is fitted with 'stay-alive'.

I grant that RC would cure this problem entirely, but I have yet to see the same controllability at very slow speeds (and then across the full speed range) that I am getting from DCC. I do use DelTang RC in my lorries my layout, so I'm not unfamiliar with the systems and their characteristics. (And have been following RC in locos for a few years)

 

I have high hopes that factors like this will improve over time (as they have over the past few years) but as yet, it is still not quite comparable in all aspects of performance for me......

Interesting point about low speed running. I googled it yesterday and came up with some interesting comments.

 

Running at 3mph. Actual train crews might be horrified that they would be going so slow!

 

Plus from a previous Class 08 shunter - they always accelerated as fast as they could to 15mph or whatever, then braked hard and let the wagons continue. For them the sooner the job was done the better, more time back in the mess room I suppose.

 

i remember watching steam shunting in Durranhill sidings in Carlise. IIRC the Jinty's etc seemed to be moving pretty fast to me.

 

maybe the virtue of BEMF control is you can get a smoother start by overcoming the stiction problem. Deltang have yet to introduce a BEMF receiver.

[chaz]

I spend a lot of time (initially) fettle get my locos to ensure they run well at very low shunting speeds, and have reliable pick-ups. None-the-less, once In a blue moon, I do get a stall.... The only loco which is completely impervious to this, and gives text-book perfect performance 100% of the time is my Ixion Fowler that is fitted with 'stay-alive'.

I grant that RC would cure this problem entirely, but I have yet to see the same controllability at very slow speeds (and then across the full speed range) that I am getting from DCC. I do use DelTang RC in my lorries my layout, so I'm not unfamiliar with the systems and their characteristics. (And have been following RC in locos for a few years)

 

I have high hopes that factors like this will improve over time (as they have over the past few years) but as yet, it is still not quite comparable in all aspects of performance for me......

 

An interesting and informed slant on the topic. I too have an Ixion Fowler that is fitted with 'stay-alive' which will be in action at Portsmouth on the 29th, sharing the estate work with the Agenoria Peckett (which has a 'stay-alive') and the Ixion Hudswell Clarke (which doesn't).

 

I have said that I would not move to battery powered RC unless it matches or improves on the performance of my current DCC setup, including sound. However, as I read it, a RC equipped loco will run quite happily on a DCC layout with no interference either way. That does give the opportunity for some experiment, so maybe fit a single locomotive to give the stuff a trial........

[Giles]

Having been a passed steam and diesel driver on two preserved lines, one doesn't like to smack into coaching stock at 5mph!

 

One doesn't have to crawl everywhere at 3mph, but the ability to ease up to stock in one that I want (personally) - but of course all these desires are subjective - each to his own!

 

I must say that I'm not an electronics whizz - but I greatly appreciate the benefits that people's hard work of development has brought us!

[chaz]

Option 1 - fix the mechanical/electical issues etc

 

Option 2 - put radio control and batteries in the locomotive.

 

Which is easier?

 

I suggest users are seeking solutions to their problems, rather than the suggestion that they and their equipment are somehow inadequate and inferior.

 

option 1 - well I, for one, do fix the mechanical/electrical problems as they arise. When my Peckett 0-4-0ST (compensated, with pickups on all four wheels and ballasted with lead) was working on my home layout it would run throughout an evening's running session with no stalls. However if I ran it again on a subsequent evening without cleaning its wheels it would start to give problems, either occasionally stalling or failing to restart. I would suggest that this is probably inevitable with an 0-4-0 - it certainly isn't "somehow inadequate and inferior". At a recent two day show, after having had an ESU Powerpack (their name for a keep-alive) added it worked for the whole two days quite faultlessly.

 

Are your strictures about users seeking solutions to their problems based on experiences with Bo-Bo and Co-Co diesels, I wonder? Those of us with a taste for small kettles need a little help keeping the wheels turning even if the models are well engineered.

 

Chaz

[davetheroad]

option 1 - well I, for one, do fix the mechanical/electrical problems as they arise. When my Peckett 0-4-0ST (compensated, with pickups on all four wheels and ballasted with lead) was working on my home layout it would run throughout an evening's running session with no stalls. However if I ran it again on a subsequent evening without cleaning its wheels it would start to give problems, either occasionally stalling or failing to restart. I would suggest that this is probably inevitable with an 0-4-0 - it certainly isn't "somehow inadequate and inferior". At a recent two day show, after having had an ESU Powerpack (their name for a keep-alive) added it worked for the whole two days quite faultlessly.

 

Are your strictures about users seeking solutions to their problems based on experiences with Bo-Bo and Co-Co diesels, I wonder? Those of us with a taste for small kettles need a little help keeping the wheels turning even if the models are well engineered.

 

Chaz

I have no strictures but the poster of the quote i used appears as if they may well have.

[Giles]

I must say that the only 'intermittant' running issues I've come across in the last five years -in 7mm - both standard and narrow - has been due to bad pick up, either from rail to wheel, or between wheel and pick-up, rather than any motor/mechanical issues. This rather conflicts with Andy R's experiences....

I run a mix of scratchbuilt, kit and RTR chassis.

 

fettling of track and chassis minimises the event, and the use of graphite all but eradicates it...... But stay-alive makes it extinct!

[raymw]

There seems to be confusion in many comments here between RC and battery power - they can be exclusive.  RC does the control side only, battery does the power. If wanted, DCC could do the control, and battery the power, or track power with radio control. Either way a capacitor or small battery can keep the other side going, if you see what I mean.

 

Personally,  I think the dcc protocol is quite comprehensive, the Bachman video refers to complexity - it needn't be, but has to be if fine detail is needed. It would be trivial to wrap a gui around the cv settings, and control from a phone, and that is already available.

 

The batteries will be the problem. Any model railway manufacturer's solution will initially be along the same principles as inkjet printers - 'low' cost to sign up, but high cost of consumables (batteries in this case). Rechargeable batteries have a finite life.

 

At the moment, it is fun and interesting, experimenting with what is already out there.

[chaz]

I have no strictures but the poster of the quote i used appears as if they may well have.

 

Ah, apologies if I missed my target. Woops! I will try not to do it again.

[Andy Reichert]

The much reported disparity between pick-up reliability and good running of HO model diesels from the US, compared to the UK 00 ones, from the 60's through at least the 80's, was much to do with the US models having split axle/frame pick-up, rather than the UK widespread practice of friction wipers pressing on the backs of wheels, where dirt can more easily build up.

 

Andy

[davetheroad]

There seems to be confusion in many comments here between RC and battery power - they can be exclusive.  RC does the control side only, battery does the power. If wanted, DCC could do the control, and battery the power, or track power with radio control. Either way a capacitor or small battery can keep the other side going, if you see what I mean.

 

Personally,  I think the dcc protocol is quite comprehensive, the Bachman video refers to complexity - it needn't be, but has to be if fine detail is needed. It would be trivial to wrap a gui around the cv settings, and control from a phone, and that is already available.

 

The batteries will be the problem. Any model railway manufacturer's solution will initially be along the same principles as inkjet printers - 'low' cost to sign up, but high cost of consumables (batteries in this case). Rechargeable batteries have a finite life.

 

At the moment, it is fun and interesting, experimenting with what is already out there.

Very much mix and match. do whatever you want, it is fun and interesting.

 

At the moment non DCC radio control is at about the same stage as DCC was in its early days. It probably will never supplant DCC but fun nonetheless.

[davetheroad]

The much reported disparity between pick-up reliability and good running of HO model diesels from the US, compared to the UK 00 ones, from the 60's through at least the 80's, was much to do with the US models having split axle/frame pick-up, rather than the UK widespread practice of friction wipers pressing on the backs of wheels, where dirt can more easily build up.

 

Andy

Those friction wipers are still there!, and they must reduce the efficiency of the loco in addition to being demanding in cleaning etc.

 

So far I have removed the wipers which seems to make a difference but the next for conversion test, a black 5, i am thinking of just simply modding the DCC blanking plate and, horrors, lubricating the wipers.

 

ps - how big do stay alive capacitors have to be?

[RandyWales]

Hi again...

Some more insightful opinion on the forthcoming Bachmann Bluetooth system from another US forum...

 

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/19712?page=1

 

Randall

[PaulRhB]

I can't see why they are getting so excited about this blue rails sound in the handset as you aren't going to hear it getting distant or disappearing in tunnels. Volume control of the in loco sound remotely yes but not headphones. The sound needs to come from where you expect it to be which is why surround sound works in an immersive way that headphones can't recreate.