No wires - System specification

[Budgie]

Are you sure it's public domain? I thought it was Lenz's intellectual property, and they agreed to let others use it for no licence fee.

[robertc]

The NMRA DCC protocol is free for all to use. Lenz came up with the original format, an innovative higher voltage application of long existing packet communication protocols.

 

regards

 Bob

[CME and Bottlewasher]

What US , EU differences are you referring too

 

As for RC , that's way more complex then DCC.

 

DCC works because , it's a standard , simple to implement and it works on the standard infrastructure

 

The world is full of technology that never takes off.

 

Unless RC technology can deliver significant advantage it will remain a technological oddity.

 

Most of our problems are due to pathetic pickup issues. Bent bits of springy wire are hardly the latest technology.

Hi,

 

The differences were my loose descriptions of eg the Lenz vs Digitrax protocols. It was back then that it dawned on me that the only thing that was compatible, was, by and large, the decoders.

 

Im inclined to agree with you over all, and yet, I would suggest that, RC is the norm for every other modelling interest and DCC is the technological odddity as you put it......Pick ups and wheel and track cleaning are indeed a real chore....

 

 

Interesting to read all the wish lists and suppositions.

I built my first battery /radio control unit many years back and have used various methods of command control since.

At one time I was waiting for the RailLynx system to be updated to radio instead of IR. It never happened so being lazy and not wanting to build my own at the time I chose to go DCC.

I run an outdoor 0 gauge layout and did some testing of current technology battery /radio vs my DCC to see what suited my situation the best.

 

To cut a long story short, all battery/ radio did was to swap rare wheel/track cleaning with constant battery charging . I of course opted for the system that required the least amount of work. Removing greenery and bird poo from the track is required for both methods of power.

 

My trains usually get let out to run for hours at a time while I read, sleep, eat, drink, etc. However sometimes I get a visitor who likes to shuffle stock around the yard with one of my little shunting locos. Gerfingerpoken is not normally required. I have made a 'stay alive' for the little rail tractor I built but so far I haven't seen a need to install it.

 

If I only had two or three locos and the layout was used just for shunting outdoors I would probably opt for the battery/radio. However as I have several and have more under construction I can do without keeping them all charged.

 

 

I do have a use for my existing battery/ radio equipment. I will have a very small collection of 3-rail items I would like to test run on my layout. Fortunately the wheel dimensions allow the stock to run on the Peco bullhead I am using. Keeping the skate out of the way and having the loco wired to run off a battery/radio van means I can run it when the DCC is turned of. Mine runs on the common 2.4G DSM2 protocol using Deltang, Mtronics and Orange equipment and I use LiFePO4 batteries.

 

Given the limitations of battery capacity my ideal system  would be one that takes my DCC signal direct to the loco by radio and charges a battery of my choice from the track. Only plain track need be wired. One day someone might offer such a radio/battery management interface that I can use with my existing decoders.

 

regards

 Bob Comerford

Hi Bob,

 

Yes batteries are not quite there yet, IMHO, in the size, power output and then the - ease of - charging stakes. Also I have noted that once quality brands of alkaline batteries are not as reliable (read SAFE) as they once were, due, in the main, to outsourced manufacture, in Pacific Rim countries. Father had a battery catch fire in his car the other day as he was taking it to be rebuilt - we have had numerous problems with battery quality over the past couple of years and some big brands are fibbing when they offer up reasons (excuses) for such problems. Then there is the issue of swapping the things in and out of locos when life expired, not to mention the horror stories of high discharge and rapid charging of LiPo or Li-Ion batteries.

 

Having said all of this, I still think RC can be made to work, mainstream toys dont seem to suffer the same problems as our own spun DIY RC solutions, mind you the RC boat and car modellers dont seem to have problems....

 

Kindest to all,

 

CME

[RandyWales]

Hi again...

Deadrail 7mm

 

 

Sound?

 

[RandyWales]

Hi...

Bluerail Trains have started shipping their first Bluetooth board in the US and are asking non-US customers to register an interest. Deadrail Battery option $167 all inclusive.

Reported by DCC Topics followers here on RMweb....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95379-Bachmann-bluetooth-locomotive-control/?p=2284447

 

Randall

 

[81A Oldoak]

I am experimenting with the Tam Valley Depot radio-control DCC solution. The system works by inserting a transmitter and on board receiver in between the DCC controller and on-board decoder. The biggest challenge is batteries. The LiPo solution is still very unstable and quite worrying. I was in AC Models in Eastleigh and their RC department recommended the use of what appeared to be a fireproof bag while recharging! Nevertheless, I think it is just a matter of time before the all of the ante-diluvian impedimenta  required for current collection via  rails will go the say way as the brontosaurus.

[RandyWales]

I am experimenting with the Tam Valley Depot radio-control DCC solution. The system works by inserting a transmitter and on board receiver in between the DCC controller and on-board decoder. The biggest challenge is batteries. The LiPo solution is still very unstable and quite worrying. I was in AC Models in Eastleigh and their RC department recommended the use of what appeared to be a fireproof bag while recharging! Nevertheless, I think it is just a matter of time before the all of the ante-diluvian impedimenta  required for current collection via  rails will go the say way as the brontosaurus.

Hi Chris...

LiPo stability is, as you say, an unknown quantity.

However, I think the RC dept in any model shop will always err on the side of caution. Many of the problems with LiPos have been the result of negligence and abuse and especially charging the battery too quickly....where users want a quick turnaround on the flying field or racing circuit.

If treated with respect, they should be quite safe, and a low trickle charge with auto cutoff should protect things, and it would appear that the Bluerail setup has this kind of protection.

Randall

[Nearholmer]

I drop this in every time this topic comes up: have a play with a Lionel Lionchief loco.

 

A great deal of what is sought is available, off the shelf, by that route, which uses the same family of 2.4GHz DSSS or FHSS radio, as do many people in 16mm/ft scale. Lionchief uses a fixed DC voltage on the track for power supply, but will work equally well from an on-board battery, which is what 16mm/ft "diesels" have. Oh, and Playmobil use it very successfully too.

 

Since we have a Lionchief, a 16mmft diesel, and a Playmobil loco in our household, all with the same family of radio control, perhaps I should make a You Tube video to illustrate them.

 

I'm not sure what control protocol is or can be carried over these wireless link formats, but there was a young lad on here working on routing DCC protocol direct to loco over a 2.4GHz link. No progress reports lately, though, unless I've missed them.

 

Kevin

[chaz]

I am experimenting with the Tam Valley Depot radio-control DCC solution. The system works by inserting a transmitter and on board receiver in between the DCC controller and on-board decoder. The biggest challenge is batteries. The LiPo solution is still very unstable and quite worrying. I was in AC Models in Eastleigh and their RC department recommended the use of what appeared to be a fireproof bag while recharging! Nevertheless, I think it is just a matter of time before the all of the ante-diluvian impedimenta  required for current collection via  rails will go the say way as the brontosaurus.

 

This seems to me to offer potentially an excellent solution to the shortcomings of track pickup with all its attendant problems. My Dock Green layout was at the one day show in Fareham on Saturday and after lunch a number of loco's were exhibiting stalling and reluctance to start despite the fitting of stay-alives to a couple of them. Am I right in thinking that the radio control link will pass all the data from the DCC controller to the decoder? If that is the case then there will be no loss of facilities offered by the decoder, all the programming including the sound project will be available.

 

Do you know if it's possible to mix some R/C+DCC fitted with just plain DCC on the same layout? This would allow the R/C aspect to be fitted on a rolling programme rather than having to do all the stock in one bash.

 

(I will send you a PM)

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

This seems to me to offer potentially an excellent solution to the shortcomings of track pickup with all its attendant problems. My Dock Green layout was at the one day show in Fareham on Saturday and after lunch a number of loco's were exhibiting stalling and reluctance to start despite the fitting of stay-alives to a couple of them. Am I right in thinking that the radio control link will pass all the data from the DCC controller to the decoder? If that is the case then there will be no loss of facilities offered by the decoder, all the programming including the sound project will be available.

 

Do you know if it's possible to mix some R/C+DCC fitted with just plain DCC on the same layout? This would allow the R/C aspect to be fitted on a rolling programme rather than having to do all the stock in one bash.

 

(I will send you a PM)

 

Chaz

Chaz,

According to the bumf, an RC fitted loco can run on a conventionally track-powered DC or DCC system provided it is isolated from the track by removing current collection apparatus. This is one of the selling points allowing gradual conversion and also guest running on other layouts.

 

Chris

[chaz]

A crucial question - is the Tam Valley Depot DRS1 legal in the UK?

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

One assumes so as Digitrains is the authorised UK distributor.

[chaz]

One assumes so as Digitrains is the authorised UK distributor.

 

Safe assumption I think. Googling the waveband and reading the Wiki' page suggests that this is available in Europe for all kinds of users. A number of questions need answering however...

 

• How would the system fare at an exhibition if several layouts were using the same setup? I'm guessing that a likely cause of interference would be if two layouts both had loco's with the same ID number, which seems a small risk.
• Do the receivers work if they are hidden inside a metal model?
• How reliable is the transmitter/receiver link?
• How easy is it to buy? (Digitrains are currently OOS and the other UK Tam Valley dealer doesn't list DRS1 on its website)

The easiest way to resolve some of these questions would seem to be to try it out.   Have you got a transmitter and receiver, Chris?

 

Chaz

[81A Oldoak]

Safe assumption I think. Googling the waveband and reading the Wiki' page suggests that this is available in Europe for all kinds of users. A number of questions need answering however...

 

• How would the system fare at an exhibition if several layouts were using the same setup? I'm guessing that a likely cause of interference would be if two layouts both had loco's with the same ID number, which seems a small risk.
• Do the receivers work if they are hidden inside a metal model?
• How reliable is the transmitter/receiver link?
• How easy is it to buy? (Digitrains are currently OOS and the other UK Tam Valley dealer doesn't list DRS1 on its website)

The easiest way to resolve some of these questions would seem to be to try it out.   Have you got a transmitter and receiver, Chris?

 

Chaz

Chaz,

I have a DTX022 DRS1 MkIII transmitter and two DRX022 DRS1 MkIII receivers. All of the literature states that the antennae for the receivers will not work effectively when they are enclosed by a metal-bodied locomotive so I have to devise a solution for all but my Ixion and Minerva locos. The instructions also require a power on/off switch to be fitted to prevent the LiPo batteries discharging when the locomotive is not in use.  The fitting instructions contain the following warning in bold type-face: "If you mis-charge LiPo batteries they may explode!!!" Indeed, they recommend that the batteries are removed from the loco for recharging and placed in a coffee mug while they charge "so that if there is an unfortunate accident the mug will absorb the flames and heat."  It all appears to be a step in the right direction, but it is expensive and tedious and the battery situation needs a much better solution.  I  think it will be a struggle to fit all of the extra equipment into small locomotives such as the Ixion Manning Wardle H 0-4-0ST and  I shall not be fitting the receivers until I have sourced suitable LiPo batteries and a charger. You're welcome to drop in and inspect the kit.

 

Regards,

 

Chris

[Robin2]

I have done some experimenting with Arduinos and nRF24L01+ 2.4GHz transceivers and as far as I can see several pairs can communicate independently on the same frequency as long as they have different addresses (which have nothing to do with DCC addresses). And 2.4GHz model aircraft controllers don't suffer from conflicts.

 

The "behind the scenes" behaviour of 2.4GHz transceivers seems to include a huge amount of sophisticated stuff to prevent them suffering from interference.

 

...R

[RandyWales]

Hi Chris...

LiPo stability is, as you say, an unknown quantity.

However, I think the RC dept in any model shop will always err on the side of caution. Many of the problems with LiPos have been the result of negligence and abuse and especially charging the battery too quickly....where users want a quick turnaround on the flying field or racing circuit.

If treated with respect, they should be quite safe, and a low trickle charge with auto cutoff should protect things, and it would appear that the Bluerail setup has this kind of protection.

Randall

I've had a reply from Bluerail with regard to charging the LiPo battery....there ISN'T a built-in charging capability - their board will rely on a 3rd party charger connected via a plug that IS supplied. They have pointed me in the direction of a suitable charger.

I still don't have any plans to go DeadRail myself....But I am interested in the Bluerail method of controlling trains.

I know a bit about LiPo safety from the comprehensive research I did when I bought my drone.

Randall.

[81A Oldoak]

Here is a photo of the Tam Valley Depot transmitter and receiver. The enamel wire antenna on the receiver is visible and I'm working our how to install it as the guinea pig is likely to be a brass 0-6-2T.

[chaz]

Here is a photo of the Tam Valley Depot transmitter and receiver. The enamel wire antenna on the receiver is visible and I'm working our how to install it as the guinea pig is likely to be a brass 0-6-2T.

 

How long is the wire antenna? It would be possible to glue it in the corner between the footplate and the valence on most brass locos - it would be discrete there but would it work effectively? Stretching it along the underside the frames between the wheels is another place where it would go largely unnoticed.

 

Chaz

[Robin2]

That looks like a very long antenna. What frequency does it work on? The antenna on the Deltang 2.4GHz units is only about as long as the diameter of the 50 pence piece.

 

...R

[chaz]

Has any thought been given to working voltages?

 

I know from experience how the supply voltage of a DCC system affects the performance. Reduction of the supply voltage reduces speeds and also sound volumes.

 

In a Tam Valley system the DCC supply voltage will come from the on-board battery and will determine the performance of a loco', particularly the maximums available. I won't worry if speeds are reduced by moving to RC - all my loco's have their maximum speeds set with CVs and these can easily be adjusted upwards.

 

Maximum sound levels can be a problem at shows - too loud can be a nuisance but I have at least one loco' whose sound goes almost unnoticed in the ambient noise levels at a show, even though the volume is set high.

 

Chaz