cornamuse Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Hi guys - I thought I would set this thread going, mainly because I am modelling a station in the 1840 - 1860 sort of timescale and have all sorts of daft questions that I am hoping you might be able to enlighten me on! So - first one - any idea when running-in boards became common? or did it vary wildly? Also - does anyone have a drawing of a Stockton and Darlington Birdcage brake - as opposed to NE likewise - short, dumb-buffered goods stock - especially early lime waggons - and vans- were they ever dumb buffered? my layout is "Gainford Spa" in the boxfiles section, here are a couple of views so you can see what I am at it is a freelance, broadly County Durham, minor railway company, mostly scratchbuilt - apart from track and people - and modelled in 7mm scale thanks in advance Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Hello Andy What scale are the buildings and stock? I model the same sort of period,in EM gauge but railways south of the Thames Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 7mm scale- all the drawings and so on are mine, if you want any of them for the stock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Does it matter? You're obviously modelling a railway on a different planet, where the sky is green and they have flying trains, so history might be somewhat different . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 good point I think I need to hide the evidence of nursery indoctrination ... but you aren't far from the truth, I went freelance so I couldn't be told it wasn't right... although laws and suchlike would still need adhering to, I guess my son (who is 3) is now a happy railway fan, just like dad, and has decided this layout is his, despite having 2 of his own BG - I also bow down to your broad gauge track making skills - my father, a GWR man to the very marrow would love it. My fetish for all things North Eastern has long been a source of deep sorrow for him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 This is a fascinating period and one in which I am very interested. However, I chickened out when, in the late 1950's, I decided to model the pre group scene. I chose the early 20th century, finally deciding on 1908, Midland Railway and 4mm scale on EM gauge track. Never regretted it, but my best wishes to you in your modelling that interesting period. Derek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hello Cornamuse Thanks for the reply and offer of drawings I could use a copy of the coach drawing please. How do I start a 'personal conversation on this forum? Regards Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 There are plans for Stockton & Darlington birdcage brake vans in 'Model Railways' September 1975 IIRC and I seem to recall some in Ian Sadler's book on NER brake vans , but I might be mistaken (my copy is in the loft at the moment) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 many thanks, I will go searching. Mind you, living just up the road from the Ken Hoole collection, I should really get my bum in gear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2015 Lots of stock was dumb -buffered, with examples lasting in to the early years of the 1900's. Most railway companies used dumb buffered stock, and lots were converted to sprung buffers later in their life (usually by sawing off the dumb buffers, which were, in themselves usually just extensions of the solebars beyond the headstocks, so that lots of wagons could be instantly recognised as being conversions, as the headstocks finished inside the solebars, not outside them). Lots of private owner wagons also had dumb buffers, as I guess they would be cheaper to produce.... Has the books on private owner wagons and the various manufacturers got photos of any of these early wagons? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 This is a rather poor picture of some freelance wagons I butchered from kits years ago. The middle one has dumb buffers at both ends, and the one on the right has them at one end, with sprung buffers at the other. This was done to provide some springing while saving money, I remember reading somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 For UAX6 There are some very good clear photographs of dumb buffered wagons in ' Private Owner Wagons from The Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd' book by Keith Montague Michael dJS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I love the box tank. I think these have real character (although I always think of them as being called Neil!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 yup, I always think of them as Neil, too - although this one is Sir Andrew thanks for the info Michael Nice pic, John. I suspect I will go freelance, as, well. there were loads off odd and sods kicking around, and, after all, even my locos are freelance... it means I can make them look representative - a variety of different types, but with a "house style" - I think that makes it look more authentic as a complete scene, even if the individual components are less accurate - in the past I have tried mixing stock from too wide a variety of companies, and it looked odd. Anyway, the narrow gauge guys seem to indulge in fantasy railway companies a lot, why not do the same for standard gauge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The layout they are on was fairly freelance. It was what something rather like the West Somerset Mineral Railway might have looked like if it was mixed gauge. It was my first broad gauge layout, and my excuse for converting a Hornby 0-4-0ST to broad gauge! These narrow gauge wagons were shunted around by the Hornby loco, that has wide dumb buffers to cope with both gauges. The sidestepping, where the narrow gauge changed sides, worked nicely too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 would have liked to have seen that - scary thought, mixed gauge trackwork! how did the Hornby ST work, regauged? a couple of my locos have Smokey Joe innards running them, and I have been tempted by trying to regauge one to 32 mm and making something like the Pecket Teddy, or maybe Tiny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The secret to building mixed gauge track is to use P4 standards. It makes it so much easier, and it runs far better. I could start a new topic on the layout if anyone is interested. It was a long time ago, and not all the photos I have are that good, but I think I can remember enough about it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 yup, I always think of them as Neil, too - although this one is Sir Andrew thanks for the info Michael Nice pic, John. I suspect I will go freelance, as, well. there were loads off odd and sods kicking around, and, after all, even my locos are freelance... it means I can make them look representative - a variety of different types, but with a "house style" - I think that makes it look more authentic as a complete scene, even if the individual components are less accurate - in the past I have tried mixing stock from too wide a variety of companies, and it looked odd. Anyway, the narrow gauge guys seem to indulge in fantasy railway companies a lot, why not do the same for standard gauge? As a one-time 'narrow gauge guy' I would agree, i have often thought that early railways lend themselves to free-lancing, including fictional companies, for the same reason as NG lines do - a variety of small companies, often using stock from outside manufacturers rather than things with their own distinctive style. The same can be said for light and mineral lines I suppose (remember the East Suffolk Light, N. Cornwall Minerals). As for mixing stock from different real lines, I think it can work, but they need to be from similar lines, with similar types, sizes of stock etc to look right I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 There's been a tendency to make early railways very freelance, and to mix time periods and locations into totally unrealistic models. Mike Sharman's layout(s) are a good example, where he had locos and rolling stock of various gauges and railways, that would never have been together in one location. I can understand it, as information and kits are harder to find, and RTR virtually non existent. But it gives a false impression of 19th century railways. Things have greatly improved in recent years though, for the broad gauge anyway, as you can see from the BGS web site http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/modelling/models_intro.html There's nothing wrong with freelance, but I think it's better if it's convincing, rather than an excuse to run anything you fancy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnarcher Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 There's been a tendency to make early railways very freelance, and to mix time periods and locations into totally unrealistic models. Mike Sharman's layout(s) are a good example, where he had locos and rolling stock of various gauges and railways, that would never have been together in one location. I can understand it, as information and kits are harder to find, and RTR virtually non existent. But it gives a false impression of 19th century railways. Things have greatly improved in recent years though, for the broad gauge anyway, as you can see from the BGS web site http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/modelling/models_intro.html There's nothing wrong with freelance, but I think it's better if it's convincing, rather than an excuse to run anything you fancy! I agree wholly with your last sentence (as I hope I said above). I have seen some pretty unconvincing 'anything you fancy' freelancing, especially in 009. On the other hand, for instance, the old N Cornwall Minerals was a very different sort of freelance, convincing because based on a few, consistent, similar lines. I think maybe that approach could be taken with some of the smaller, early lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I can see your point - my approach has been to select from local lines - essentially Stockton and Darlington stock, or similar, and architecture similarly - such as I have space for - of the right period and, hopefully, location. freelancing seemed to be a good way of bringing the elements together without having to worry if research did not turn up a small but important detail - or something I cannot achieve yet - hence inside cylinders, so I don't have to build motion for the locomotives. Also important, I feel, is that the line has a location, basic timescale, even particular personalities associated with it. Therefore, I know what stock it will need, where it will go and so on. Another strong contender for the idea was a museum or preserved line - which would allow a much wider variety of stock and still be believable. However, I felt it would seriously reduce the variety of stock movements, and just about kill goods stock movements. I think it is about balance - I am a firm believer in rule 1 - it IS my Bl**dy trainset, so I will run what I like, but once you share your work with other people , you invite comment and a reaction, and viewers have a right to an opinion too - otherwise why are you showing them it? I haven't the space, time, or, I suspect, ability to make a historically accurate model of a particular location on a particular day. I feel that any model that doesn't take it to these extremes is freelance, to some extent - I have just taken it rather further! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeandnel Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Hello Cornamuse I have been watching the comments following your initial post and it seems to me as if you are getting a lot of pleasure from what you do. If that is the case, keep it up and enjoy yourself, As you know I modelled Early railways South of the Thames, and I have been told many a time, do what you think is right, no-one can prove you wrong as there are no longer any records available. I certainly agree with the sentiments in your last posting Michael dJS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Another strong contender for the idea was a museum or preserved line - which would allow a much wider variety of stock and still be believable. However, I felt it would seriously reduce the variety of stock movements, and just about kill goods stock movements. I've managed to avoid the embarrassment of resorting to a museum for somewhere to run my existing stock! I was planning a mixed EM and P4 standards broad gauge layout, where I could run my early 1900s and 1930/40s EM stock alongside broad gauge "replicas"! This was to try to actually get something built and running, but instead I've started on a 00 gauge BLT set around 1960, where everything is RTR. I haven't used 00 for 43 years, so it's a novelty! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Michael - massive amounts of enjoyment, thank you! I love your work - and agree - not enough records to prove you aren't being accurate... John - I agree, it would feel a bit like an embarrassment - especially as I don't have much stock in the first place, might as well build it all to work together in this scale. I think the best freelance work is where there is a strong sense of theme - a clear might have been, rather than random stuff. Doesn't mean I wont be running Toby the Tram engine, though - he is our favourite! Actually, the piano tank may well get skirts if she doesn't start behaving. Does anyone know when they started to be used? new question - anyone got pictures of adverts painted on walls of shops in the 1850s (ish) ? trying to liven up the café - I have a picture that has supplied some for the front (pics to come) also - any cheap supplier of 7mm loco wheels? with easy (permanent) quartering... my wagon - wheeled locos are developing problems with con rods binding, as the wheels slip with use, even after superglue. any other ideas if not? I don't fancy £40 a loco when they have cost about £10 each, total. cheers andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornamuse Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 adverts on the café now - look at drawings of towns in early Victorian times - the shops seem covered with them! the sausage and mash ones are authentic, from a picture of a pub in Northampton coaling stage next- fairly basic - there always a water tower next to them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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