Midland Railway Company

[technohand]

According to all the published information he was fairly open minded but in comparison found fuel and oil consumption was inferior. However it must be remembered the locos were only a stop gap to overcome a supply problem in the British manufacturers.

Tony

[Compound2632]

What the Supplement* makes clear is the high level of involvement of the Locomotive Superintendent's staff in the specification and project management for these engines. Two members of staff were posted to America to oversee manufacture. Johnson sent J.W. Smith, son of his great friend W.M. Smith, to Baldwins. Smith went on to become Johnson's last Chief Draughtsman, before moving to the equivalent post under J.G. Robinson at Gorton in 1906. Robinson's 3-cylinder compound atlantics came out in 1905, so J.W. Smith can't be directly implicated in the design of those marvelous engines. However, had he remained at Derby things would have become very uncomfortable: Deeley was having the Smith patent features of the Compounds designed out to avoid paying the exorbitant fees being demanded by W.M.'s executors after the latter's death in 1906.

 

To the Skeh-neck-tedy Works (thanks Spitfire), Johnson sent Cecil Paget, the son of the company Chairman, Sir Ernest Paget. Cecil Paget was clearly a brilliant young man and went on to a highly influential career in management; he does though rather seem to have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He married the daughter of a Duke, not in itself a bad thing but indicative of the kind of circles he was used to moving in. I have a sneaking feeling that Johnson may have been glad to get him out of the way for a few months. 

 

*David Hunt, American Locomotives of the Midland Railway (Midland Record Supplement No. 1) (Wild Swan Publications, 1997).

Edited March 25, 2018 by Compound2632

[Hair_Dave]

Looking at my copy of the Midland Record supplement Johnson had this to say regarding the Yankee moguls "they pulled their trains satisfactorily". Personally I think their demise was due to higher running costs, in part due to unfamiliarity for the crew. Primarily because of the way the boiler was mounted, they followed American fashion which precluded use of Midland standard boilers, or even readily available British boilers. So when they were due for renewal it was not economical to replace them.

 

Regarding making one, beware the very distinctive wheelbase on the drivers. I plan to use a roundhouse old timer kit. But the one i purchased on a well known auction site has a significant fault, the chassis supplied is for the 2-8-0. All other details are the same.

[Spitfire2865]

Regarding making one, beware the very distinctive wheelbase on the drivers. I plan to use a roundhouse old timer kit. But the one i purchased on a well known auction site has a significant fault, the chassis supplied is for the 2-8-0. All other details are the same.

My problem with building one is finding the wheels for them in G3.  Hope Slaters makes something similar.

[Hair_Dave]

I can't help with G3, I am an enthusiastic novice working in OO.

 

I do have a further question, how would picnic saloons be operated? I am planning to make one having been bitten by the enthusiasm bug. The specific one i am looking for is a 48ft square panelled non corridor clerestory picnic 3rd,i can't remember the diagram.

[jamie92208]

I can't help with G3, I am an enthusiastic novice working in OO.

 

I do have a further question, how would picnic saloons be operated? I am planning to make one having been bitten by the enthusiasm bug. The specific one i am looking for is a 48ft square panelled non corridor clerestory picnic 3rd,i can't remember the diagram.

I can't give any info about picnic saloons but I do have some first hand info about family saloons.

My father did a lot of pre internet genealogy and came across a letter from an old aunt describing how the family went on their summer holiday to a house on the isle of Arran in the 1880's. They booked a family saloon, (Company not known) which was delivered to Hooton station on the Wirral. The family, including the cook, and the maid, all boarded and away they went on the CLC to Manchester Central. From there it was tripped to Victoria to be attached to a train to Preston. At Preston it was transferred to an LNWR express to Glasgow which was worked onwards by the Caledonian from Carlisle. At Glasgow central it was tripped to the other side of the station and then taken to Wemyss Bay from where they got the boat to Brodick on Arran. The whole journey was reversed at the end of the holiday. I know that this doesn't directly answer your query but I would suspect that similar arrangements would be made for picnic saloons and that they could probably appear on other company's trains. Like Horse boxes, Family and I suspect Picnic, saloons could well appear in all sorts of places.

 

Jamie

[Jol Wilkinson]

Picnic saloons, of which the LNWR had a large number, were also probably used for club outings. A cycling club (a popular pastime up to WW2 might rent a saloon and van for the bikes to  set of on a day or longer trip. Picnic saloons tended to be fairly open plan with longitudinal seating and centre tables. Usually Third class, Picnic Saloons would be also be used for outings, such as seaside trips, church outings, the races, etc. There were also Family and Day saloons, probably more likely used for the sort of journey Jamie has described.  As these were usually attached to regular timetable trains, there doesn't seem to be much information on how, where or when they were actually used.

[billbedford]

Looking at my copy of the Midland Record supplement Johnson had this to say regarding the Yankee moguls "they pulled their trains satisfactorily". Personally I think their demise was due to higher running costs, in part due to unfamiliarity for the crew. Primarily because of the way the boiler was mounted, they followed American fashion which precluded use of Midland standard boilers, or even readily available British boilers. So when they were due for renewal it was not economical to replace them.

 

 

 

Yep. because of the bar frames the space for the firebox was narrower than on UK built locos, so standard boilers could not be used as replacements. 

[Hair_Dave]

Jol, Jamie, that's very relevant and interesting. I shall run my proposed picnic saloon as the first vehicle on an ordinary train, maybe with a separate luggage vehicle.

 

I already knew a little about family saloons, the MR had a significant number of them. My intent is to use them as an excuse to collect some coaches and npcs from other railways. My other excuse being through coaches, however again i know precious little.

[jamie92208]

Jol, Jamie, that's very relevant and interesting. I shall run my proposed picnic saloon as the first vehicle on an ordinary train, maybe with a separate luggage vehicle.

 

I already knew a little about family saloons, the MR had a significant number of them. My intent is to use them as an excuse to collect some coaches and npcs from other railways. My other excuse being through coaches, however again i know precious little.

That's exactly why I've got various saloons and NPCCS. When the late David Jenkinson sold of his unbuilt kits I bought most of them and there were four horseboxes from different Pre Grouping companies and building them all (1 done and one part done so far) will give me an excuse to run them on Lancaster Green Ayre. I just need to sort out an automatic coupler that I can fit to the loco ad the horse boxes so that the train engine can detach them in the platform and shunt them into the horse dock. The L & Y family saloon that is part built will be on a through train to Morecambe or possibly attached to the Heysham Boat Train.

 

Jamie

[billbedford]

These saloons on the GNR were called 'football' saloons, which gives you a good indication of the traffics they were used for. Their main use was for day trips so where not often used with a separate luggage van, most had luggage compartments which where big enough for any picnic baskets and beer crate necessary for a good day out.

[ChrisN]

Hi,

On Penrhos' site there are a couple of pictures of people using picnic saloons.  The Cambrian had at least two third class saloons, one of which was hired on a regular basis to take a football team to its matches.  Some family saloons had more than one class of accommodation, first for the family and third for the servamts.

 

Through coaches tended to be on a 'turn and turn about' basis, that is, one day your company, next day theirs.  This made charging for pulling their coach over your lines easy as if it was the same distance on both lines it equalled itself out.  The Cambrian did quite badly out of this as through coaches to London went a lot further on foreign metals than their own.  THrough coaches tended to be composites, or luggage composites, and at busy periods there would have been more than one coach.  Was it the Midland that ran the 'Sunny South Express' with the LB&SCR?  (Search 'Sunny South Express' in this forum.

 

There were through coaches for the year that I have information, (1907 I think), from Manchester Central to Aberystwyth all year and to Barmouth and Pwllheli in the summer.  Whether these were Midland or CLC trains I do not know.

Edited April 15, 2018 by ChrisN

[Regularity]

 

Sunny South Express was LBSC/LNW:

The caption is wrong - that’s a Brighton engine!

Edited April 15, 2018 by Regularity

[Regularity]

Also an interesting site:

http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/cross-country-routes.html

[Compound2632]

Harumph! Wot's all this Wessy stuff doing 'ere?

[Regularity]

There are some questions which shouldn’t be asked, in case they get an answer...

[technohand]

As said previously the Midland built quite a few.

Branchlines do an etched kit for the 48ft saloon. Part No. 4.47. in 4mm.

They also do etched sides for 7mm Scale but you have to scratch build the underframe and roof etc.

I can't find a diagram in Midland Carriages though!

[Compound2632]

As said previously the Midland built quite a few.

Branchlines do an etched kit for the 48ft saloon. Part No. 4.47. in 4mm.

They also do etched sides for 7mm Scale but you have to scratch build the underframe and roof etc.

I can't find a diagram in Midland Carriages though!

 

D466 (p. 337 of Vol. 2). Two lots of 10 each, Lot 447 ordered Oct 1898 and Lot 517 of Aug 1901. There is a photo which I can't track down just now showing several of these forming an excursion at Cadbury's Bournville works.

 

Several of the Midland's old Pullman cars were also converted to picnic saloons, before ending their days as grounded bodies at various engine sheds.

[technohand]

Thanks for that Stephen.

The Jenkinson, Essary book only has diagrams of the 54ft and 6wheel versions.

Tony

[Compound2632]

Thanks for that Stephen.

The Jenkinson, Essary book only has diagrams of the 54ft and 6wheel versions.

Tony

 

The Essery & Jenkinson book gives a good general survey but for complete coverage, try to track down R.E. Lacy and George Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan Publications, 2 Vols. 1986).

[Argos]

Harumph! Wot's all this Wessy stuff doing 'ere?

Raising the tone.......... :-)

[John_Miles]

D466 (p. 337 of Vol. 2). Two lots of 10 each, Lot 447 ordered Oct 1898 and Lot 517 of Aug 1901. There is a photo which I can't track down just now showing several of these forming an excursion at Cadbury's Bournville works.

 

Several of the Midland's old Pullman cars were also converted to picnic saloons, before ending their days as grounded bodies at various engine sheds.

 

​ I remember a strange looking carriage body just south of Skipton during the 1950s. As ever, I asked my father what it was but he was unable to provide an answer. I am colour blind but it seemed to me to be painted a sort of LNER green which looked very incongruous. It was only when I was given a copy of Hamilton Ellis' book that I obtained an answer to my question.

[jamie92208]

​ I remember a strange looking carriage body just south of Skipton during the 1950s. As ever, I asked my father what it was but he was unable to provide an answer. I am colour blind but it seemed to me to be painted a sort of LNER green which looked very incongruous. It was only when I was given a copy of Hamilton Ellis' book that I obtained an answer to my question.

 

Would that be the old Pullman coach that's now at Butterley.   I believe that there was a bogie one and a 6 wheeler.

 

Jamie

[Edwardian]

The Essery & Jenkinson book gives a good general survey but for complete coverage, try to track down R.E. Lacy and George Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan Publications, 2 Vols. 1986).

 

I did laugh at the BRM Pendon video, which matched the commentary "these are all models of actual trains" with a coal wagon lettered "ESSERY" trundling past. I assume that in fact this must be a, perhaps later, version of the livery for William Essery anthracite collieries, Swansea, but if ever a PO wagon looked like it was named after a hobbyist ....   

[John_Miles]

Would that be the old Pullman coach that's now at Butterley.   I believe that there was a bogie one and a 6 wheeler.

 

Jamie

 

It was a bogie carriage (NB Just to be pedantic, railways had carriages, not coaches), Clayton, Bain etc were Carriage and Wagon Superintendents.