Interchanges between 'Industry' and 'The Main' - Who can go where?

[steveNCB7754]

Various 'domestic' situations, have conspired to bring my HO switching layout ambitions to a temporary hiatus, but planning still goes on.  Have a question about exchanges of goods/materials at industrial locations, as follows.

 

Back a ways, a link was posted to a YouTube video of switching operations at Nucor Steel, Seattle;

 

 

 

Very interesting, and it got me thinking about the possibility of such a scenario on my proposed layout (damm you, YouTube!).  Then I got to thinking about the practical (and prototypical) implications of doing that in model form, especially after examining the actual location, on Google Earth.  With industrial parks in general, I know that 'main' operator locos do go inside the company fence, in the course of their work. My query, is about jurisdiction and who can go where, in vast industrial/dock areas such as the one featured in the video.

 

In the Nucor example, we have two (at least) incoming commodities: Lime (covered hoppers) and scrap-metal (gondolas).  Now I would imagine that those GE 44-tonners, are not rated/permitted to go out 'on the main' (wherever that is, at the above location) to retrieve such in-bound traffic (yes?).  Equally, the tracks in the area adjacent to the steel works (where those 44-tonners are operating) does not look like the sort of place an operating company (CSX in my case) would want to risk its 'main line' motive power.  But what do I know - maybe I am over-complicating this, but how far into such an industrial system would a 'main' operator go?  Would they come all the way into those sidings in the above video, or do the 44-tonners range far and wide to retrieve in-bound goods (and 'take out the empties')?  Does the Seattle area have a shortline operator who provides the link between the 'main' and the local industries?

 

On the layout, I could avoid all this I know, by having the 'main' operator arrive with the in-bound cars, then disappear (off-scene).  Then the steel works shunter can return (on its side of the company fence) with those same cars.  Nevertheless, as someone with limited knowledge of US practise here, I am interested to know what actually happens for real.

 

TIA

Steve N

[dave1905]

Several different considerations.

 

What do you mean by the "main"?  Railroads have 3 types of tracks:  Main tracks (track between stains and through yards), sidings (locations where trains can meet and pass), and track other than a main track.

 

A train needs authority (in most cases) to occupy a main track.

A train might need authority to occupy a siding in certain cases (controlled siding in CTC).

A train doesn't need any additional authority to occupy track other than a main track.

 

There is also railroad owned track and privately owned track.  Each owner has to give the other permission to use its track.

 

Railroads technically don't "interchange" with industries.  While I know what you mean about the industry "interchanging' cars, if you dig into any of the details, unless the industry has its own common carrier, its not really interchange and so some of the interchange rules don't actually apply.  YMMV.

 

The biggest danger of an industry switcher is the railroad train and the industry switcher somehow fouling or colliding with the other.  If the industry switcher is going to switch the actual plant, then the railroad and the industry work out "delivery tracks" (which function similarly to interchange tracks in a physical sense, but different from a paperwork standpoint).  The railroad always puts inbound cars in track 1 and the industry always puts outbound cars in track two.  If the railroad is going to switch the industry and the industry job just respots or moves cars around then they have an agreement that the industry job only works in certain time frame and clears up during the window the switcher gets there or else there is a clear way to tell the industry job the railroad is there and the industry job will clear up.

 

Typically industry jobs are not permitted to enter a railroad main track.  The industry crews would have to be qualified on the railroad rules and would have to get permission from the dispatcher to enter and use the main track.  If there are cab signals on the main track, then the industry engine would have to be so equipped or would be very restricted on what moves it can make.

[Glorious NSE]

For that place the interchange yard is the other side of the expressway, there is a yard (well, group of specific tracks) there that I believe is dedicated to that use. BNSF is the class 1 serving I believe and so would drop cars there for Nucor to move into the works.

 

Not sure of the 'ownership' of that yard; my suspicion is that Nucor would authorise movements in the yard as they will make many more than BNSF do, if so, the BNSF crew would contact the person in charge of rail moves at Nucor to get access to that yard.

 

BNSF would never work the works itself, there would be no point in Nucor running a fleet of switch locos to work the plant and then paying BNSF to do it!

[steveNCB7754]

Several different considerations.

 

What do you mean by the "main"?  Railroads have 3 types of tracks:  Main tracks (track between stains and through yards), sidings (locations where trains can meet and pass), and track other than a main track.

 

A train needs authority (in most cases) to occupy a main track.

A train might need authority to occupy a siding in certain cases (controlled siding in CTC).

A train doesn't need any additional authority to occupy track other than a main track.

 

There is also railroad owned track and privately owned track.  Each owner has to give the other permission to use its track.

 

Railroads technically don't "interchange" with industries.  While I know what you mean about the industry "interchanging' cars, if you dig into any of the details, unless the industry has its own common carrier, its not really interchange and so some of the interchange rules don't actually apply.  YMMV.

 

The biggest danger of an industry switcher is the railroad train and the industry switcher somehow fouling or colliding with the other.  If the industry switcher is going to switch the actual plant, then the railroad and the industry work out "delivery tracks" (which function similarly to interchange tracks in a physical sense, but different from a paperwork standpoint).  The railroad always puts inbound cars in track 1 and the industry always puts outbound cars in track two.  If the railroad is going to switch the industry and the industry job just respots or moves cars around then they have an agreement that the industry job only works in certain time frame and clears up during the window the switcher gets there or else there is a clear way to tell the industry job the railroad is there and the industry job will clear up.

 

Typically industry jobs are not permitted to enter a railroad main track.  The industry crews would have to be qualified on the railroad rules and would have to get permission from the dispatcher to enter and use the main track.  If there are cab signals on the main track, then the industry engine would have to be so equipped or would be very restricted on what moves it can make.

 

Many thanks Dave,

 

Apologies for my ignorance regarding the nuances between 'main', siding, etc..  As a UK-based modeller, these are terms I have read about.  Trouble is, I then use them in joined-up sentences that make it look like I know what I am talking about (LOL).

 

Seriously though, your explanation is very useful.  Thanks for taking the time.

[steveNCB7754]

For that place the interchange yard is the other side of the expressway, there is a yard (well, group of specific tracks) there that I believe is dedicated to that use. BNSF is the class 1 serving I believe and so would drop cars there for Nucor to move into the works.

 

Not sure of the 'ownership' of that yard; my suspicion is that Nucor would authorise movements in the yard as they will make many more than BNSF do, if so, the BNSF crew would contact the person in charge of rail moves at Nucor to get access to that yard.

 

BNSF would never work the works itself, there would be no point in Nucor running a fleet of switch locos to work the plant and then paying BNSF to do it!

 

Hi Martyn,

 

When you say '...the interchange yard is the other side of the expressway...', do you mean the big yard immediately adjacent to the where the Nucor shunter is working (i.e. north of the West Seattle Bridge and thus, the steel works)?

 

Your last point, about BNSF not working the works itself, makes complete sense of course.

[Glorious NSE]

Edit, yes North, parallel to Harbor Ave.

 

Sorry, working from faulty memory there, with chance to look at Bing it's the two tracks through the wall thats the interchange, BNSF will drop inbound on one and pick up from the other, you can tell which is which by the scrap loads/empties. Nucor do have a small separate yard their side of the wall though.

[steveNCB7754]

Edit, yes North, parallel to Harbor Ave.

 

Sorry, working from faulty memory there, with chance to look at Bing it's the two tracks through the wall thats the interchange, BNSF will drop inbound on one and pick up from the other, you can tell which is which by the scrap loads/empties. Nucor do have a small separate yard their side of the wall though.

 

That's a lot clearer now, thanks.

 

When I first looked at that area on Google Earth, I was puzzled by what exactly the long, dark features were -  obviously now, they are those walls in shadow on the west sides.

 

All this is a bit academic anyway, as I had a good long session yesterday assessing just what extent and number of 'industries' I might fit, in the two possible layout locations I have.  The short answer appears to be -  not as many as I had imagined, and certainly not enough room to even hint at a steel works (LOL).

 

Thank goodness for AnyRail5 I say.

[steve1]

Those background buildings look like a bunch of unweathered kits!

 

steve