RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hi all, Modelling - a possible new layout based on Fife rail operations. I'm looking for information and photos that relate to various traffic flows in Fife. 1 - Grain/CO2 Trains from/to Cameron Bridge/Windygates Distillery 2 - Coal Trains from/to Methil Power Station 3 - Esparto Grass trains from/to Methil Dock for Tullis Russell 4 - Steel trains to Methil docks 5 - The various trains that served Tullis Russel - We know that they happened regularly. So - regarding the various sections above... 1 - We have more or less covered the required information from discussions on both here and other websites/forums/groups. 2 - As above 3 - We have only discovered a small amount of information relating to this traffic - we know it existed - That's all! Do you know more? 4 - We can find nothing to show this - all we have is comments on one of the local websites saying that the traffic existed. Do you know more? 5 - Were they all staged at Thornton Yard then worked back to Markinch for Tullis Russell? What actual traffic was there? So - that's your starter for 5! More as things develop? Almost certainly! Thanks Edit... Esparto Grass appears on the Port lists for Aberdeen, Granton and Methil. Origin of crop - Algeria The Granton imports all appear to have been destined for Penicuik. Can't find the destinations for either Aberdeen or Methil. Have found 1 quote that says Methil imports were for Tullis Russell and was carried in open wagons from the dock to the mill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2015 Esparto grass seems to have been quite a common import as some came through various London Docks as well. Loaded to rail in ordinary open wagons and sheeted to keep it in. Apparently it was awful stuff to handle and could very easily cut your hands if you weren't careful hence traincrew and yard staff might only pick up a stray piece 'out of interest' just the once! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Esparto grass seems to have been quite a common import as some came through various London Docks as well. Loaded to rail in ordinary open wagons and sheeted to keep it in. Apparently it was awful stuff to handle and could very easily cut your hands if you weren't careful hence traincrew and yard staff might only pick up a stray piece 'out of interest' just the once! It was also imported via Penarth (and presumably later, Cardiff) for the paper mills near Ely, Cardiff. I believe there was also baled pulp imported via Methil for Wiggins Teape, Corpach- OBAs with sheets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 30, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2015 It was also imported via Penarth (and presumably later, Cardiff) for the paper mills near Ely, Cardiff. I believe there was also baled pulp imported via Methil for Wiggins Teape, Corpach- OBAs with sheets. Hi Brian, I don't know enough about the Welsh imports to comment - I will keep an eye out as I read other information sources and report back if I find anything about it. As for the baled pulp imported via Methil docks. I had wondered about the sheeted OBA's that appear in several photos - I had assumed this might be the way that the Esparto grass was moved. In an additional reference I have found mention of WD 2-8-0's being used from Methil to Tullis Russell! Knowing how steep and tight the Auchmuty branch was that must have been quite a sight and sound.... Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Brian, I don't know enough about the welsh imports to comment - I will keep an eye out as I read other information sources and report back if I find anything about it. As for the baled pulp imported via Methil docks. I had wondered about the sheeted OBA's that appear in several photos - I had assumed this might be the way that the Esparto grass was moved. In an dditional reference I have found mention of WD 2-8-0's being used from Methil to Tullis Russell! Knowing how steep and tight the Auchmuty branch was that must have been quite a sight and sound.... Thanks The difference between baled pulp and Esparto grass when sheeted would probably be that the former would be lower and more regular in appearance. The photos I've seen of the South Walian traffic show what resembles moving haystacks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Aerial view of the Thomas Owen (later Wiggins Teape, and finally Arjo Wiggins), Ely paper mill on the western outskirts of Cardiff - circa 1947. . The GWML to Swansea runs from bottom to top. . The line that curves across the photo is the former Taff Vale Railway, later GWR, Penarth Curve North - Radyr freight line (now The City Line). . Although connected to both lines, the mill was principally served by the former TVR line. Open wagons loaded with esparto grass can be seen in the exchange siding(s) . Brian R . PS My house (then brand new) just creeps in to this photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrour Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Scottish Modeller......interesting project.....I have some ScR Trip/Shunting for Fife that might have some relevant info. If you think of value I'll have a look for you and see about scanning :-) regards Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted June 30, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Scottish Modeller......interesting project.....I have some ScR Trip/Shunting for Fife that might have some relevant info. If you think of value I'll have a look for you and see about scanning :-) regards Robert Hi Robert, That is just the sort of thing that may be of use! At Perth exhibition we worked out that if we built Thornton Yard as it was in the early 80's we would need to have a layout about 48ft long by 8ft deep! So - we won't be doing that! Looks like we are going to try a 'Bitsa' type layout to try and capture the look and feel of Thornton Yard. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted June 30, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 30, 2015 Plate 586 in BR Diesel Traction in Scotland by George C o'Hara has 20202 cab leading on a trip working of paper pulp off Methil Docks. Looks like 12 sheeted OBAs with a single covered van and LMS pattern brake van. Its at the Power Sta jct and date is 30 July 1985. I'm sure there might be another photo somwhere in the book, but there are almost 700 in total. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrour Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi, Ok, I'll look out the trip Notices. I also have historical info on Thornton Yard that might be of interest....drop me a PE with your email and I'll rustle up :-) Also just finished drawing up some signalling diagrams for Methil boxes that might be of interest? R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 jbg06003 of this parish also has a Flickr album called 'Scotland 1980's' with a lot of freight photos, have you found it? this may be part of the answer to question 5 https://www.flickr.com/photos/jbg06003/13006387914/in/photolist-b12rwt-kPk8Zu-9NNh92-9vj4Pk-b9JCPK-atH3B8-9uy8Fm-8WA9xK-9vj5tg-9viYwz-9vn76b-e2ZecB-8WA9Gc-edKhAp-4jQuJM/ cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
benachie Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sheeted esparto was sent out the Deeside line to Culter where the paper mills produced paper for Bank of England notes. Chunks of grass fell out along the line in the wake of the trains. The mill had its own siding operated by a wee pug. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Sheeted esparto was sent out the Deeside line to Culter where the paper mills produced paper for Bank of England notes. Chunks of grass fell out along the line in the wake of the trains. The mill had its own siding operated by a wee pug. Alan Any idea where they were dispatched from Alan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted July 1, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2015 jbg06003 of this parish also has a Flickr album called 'Scotland 1980's' with a lot of freight photos, have you found it? this may be part of the answer to question 5 https://www.flickr.com/photos/jbg06003/13006387914/in/photolist-b12rwt-kPk8Zu-9NNh92-9vj4Pk-b9JCPK-atH3B8-9uy8Fm-8WA9xK-9vj5tg-9viYwz-9vn76b-e2ZecB-8WA9Gc-edKhAp-4jQuJM/ cheers Hi Kevin, Yes - I know JBG's FlickR photo site quite well! This 08 picture was one of the ones that caused question 5 to be raised. So - we know about the china clay and coal workings but what else went to Tullis Russell? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 You mention Granton imports for Penicuik but there is an image in Balerno Branch and Caledonian in Edinburgh of Esparto grass being unloaded from a CR 3 plank wagon at Kinleith mill c 1914 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted July 1, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2015 You mention Granton imports for Penicuik but there is an image in Balerno Branch and Caledonian in Edinburgh of Esparto grass being unloaded from a CR 3 plank wagon at Kinleith mill c 1914 Hi DOC, There are so many possible information sources! That was the point of asking - just in case others have already done this sort of research or are aware of any specific information. I have the book - but I would never have thought about checking it for anything relating to this query! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 From memory, I think the ports of Newcastle and Sunderland were large importers of Esparto grass so rail traffic to Scotland is a possibility. Again from memory, Ford paper mill at Sunderland was the first to produce paper from Spanish esparto, the mill owner being the patent holder. Some papers were made from straw during WWII as esparto could not be imported. I'm sure it was Trains Illustrated or Modern Railways that used to run with an advert in the 1960's that read something like, "Printed on Finest Balerno Esparto Paper". Must go and check my books... Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Found another link (TV must be rubbish tonight) Grantonhistory.org then delve into sub sections of harbour and esparto grass Lovely image of pier with esparto bales in a BR 16t and x2 7 plank wagons No idea it was such a big import business. My Granton memories are Star Bank Bar for a pint or 2 and running one year through the area while competing in one of the early Edinburgh Marathons. In those good old days the route was start at Hollyrood, starter was up and down Arthurs Seat, then along some of royal mile, Grass Market, trot along Princes Street, down to Leith area, up old railway lines to Crew Toll, on through Cramond, Granton, past Brittania, Portobello and my old school at Jocks Lodge, finish Hollyrood. "Bloody rock hard" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
benachie Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Any idea where they were dispatched from Alan? No, sorry. I was only about 12 at the time and much more interested in whether the loco was a Glen or a K2 or a D40 or a B1 or a standard 4MT tank or whatever Inverurie had just mended! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 No, sorry. I was only about 12 at the time and much more interested in whether the loco was a Glen or a K2 or a D40 or a B1 or a standard 4MT tank or whatever Inverurie had just mended! Alan I can absolutely understand why! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted July 2, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2015 Hi all, Thanks for the great start with help on this - It's much appreciated. To those of you who sent stuff direct - magic! I've also had a discussion live with someone who had first had experience of Thornton Yard and the various traffic flows. It seems that rail transportation of Esparto Grass from Methil ceased before the passing of steam! So - that's one less traffic to think about and model. Another response to this question led to another question though! The Haig bottling plant at Markinch - can anyone say when this stopped being rail served/closed? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrour Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Hi Phil, re Haig's I have a signalling diagram that shows it still connected in 1979. Will look through my old WON's to see if I can find something more definitive. regards, R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted July 2, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 2, 2015 Hi Phil, re Haig's I have a signalling diagram that shows it still connected in 1979. Will look through my old WON's to see if I can find something more definitive. regards, R Hi Rob, Part of a YouTube video shows it must have still active in the early 80's. The commentary mentions a Cargowaggon bogie van that had 'just been shunted out of the Haig's siding and part of it can just be seen right of the shot. Will try to find again and put the link up. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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