Modelling the M&CR's branch lines in EM gauge

[Coal Tank]

Hi, how old is the George Norton kit 

John 

[CKPR]

Mid to late 1980s I think - it's the precursor of the London Road kit and it'll be interesting to see how it builds compared to the Special DX and the Cauliflower.The tender is the same type in all three cases but I haven't inspected them to see if there are any obvious differences/improvements in the LRM iterations compared to the Geo. Norton original. 

[Coal Tank]

I am putting together two jumbows at the moment so I Will be very interested in yours 

John 

[CKPR]

The instructions in the Geo. Norton kit admit that forming the footplate is tricky, a warning that is also in the instructions for the LRM Cauliflower! Trouble is, there are even trickier footplates on the M&C 0-4-2s and 2-4-0s, so I need to get some practice in with the LNWR kits before tackling these. This is where the NER or the Lanky begin to look very attractive to me, what with straight footplates (or w/m kits with cast splashers for the big passenger engines), inside valve gear and being proper Northern. Of course, if I'd taken that job at Edinburgh back in 2013, I'd be modelling the NBR or the Caley by now, both of which ran to Carlisle and so can be classed as Cumbrian in my book. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by CKPR

[CKPR]

The Caley, of course, reached the M&C itself at Brayton via the Solway Junction Rly. All told, the M&C, NBR and Caley lines in north west Cumbria are eminently modellable a la Ian Futers 1970s Northumbrian layouts. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by CKPR

[Regularity]

There was an interesting layout suggestion based on Brayton Junction in Modeller’s Backtrack, about 30 years ago, IIRC.

[Coal Tank]

When I did the running plate for the Lady of the Lake locomotive I annealed it very carefully, it made forming it much easier. Having said that others may not agree 

John 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 hours ago, CKPR said:

The instructions in the Geo. Norton kit admit that forming the footplate is tricky, a warning that is also in the instructions for the LRM Cauliflower! Trouble is, there are even trickier footplates on the M&C 0-4-2s and 2-4-0s, so I need to get some practice in with the LNWR kits before tackling these. This is where the NER or the Lanky look very attractive to me, what with straight footplates (or w/m kits with cast splashers for the big passenger engines), inside valve gear and being proper Northern. Of course, if I'd taken that job at Edinburgh back in 2013, I'd be modelling the NBR or the Caley by now, both of which ran to Carlisle and so can be classed as Cumbrian in my book. 

 

AFAIK, the etches for the former George Norton kits are from the original artwork, so no difference. Some of the fittings are now in lost wax cast brass as opposed to white metal.

 

Some of the instructions were revised and extended, not long after LRM took over George's range.

3 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

When I did the running plate for the Lady of the Lake locomotive I annealed it very carefully, it made forming it much easier. Having said that others may not agree 

John 

 

Hi John,

I've usually found it worthwhile  to anneal n/s when forming the running plates (e.g. LRM Jubilee, Teutonic, Renown) but not so much so for brass. However if you bend/curve the brass a lot it will work harden and annealing will take care of that..

 

Some years ago I bought a set of pliers with one convex jaw and one concave jaw. Mine came from Phil at Hobby Holidays but his website no longer lists them but a search for concave convex pliers turns up a wide variety.  They are very good for forming the various curves along the running plate, much easier than other methods I have tried. I have it possible to form n/s easily without the need to to anneal it.

 

The first model I used them on was a LRM Jubilee. The attached picture shows the partly formed running plate and valance jig.

[CKPR]

Thanks Jol and those pliers sound like they would very useful addition to the toolkit for building brass kits. 

[CKPR]

22 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Yes Maryport in its M&C heyday would be a heck of a challenge to do justice to..!

 

Cockermouth though has lots of interest... How was it worked as far as the M&C trains were concerned when they terminated there?  Did they use what looks like a platform on the southern side of the island platform, or just run into the Keswick-bound platform as LNW trains would have done?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

Perusal of 'Rails through Lakeland' reveals that the M&C only got to run trains through to Keswick after 1919 when the LNWR permitted a 9.45am train from Keswick to Maryport via Cockermouth and the Derwent branch. This was augmented in 1922 by a 'teatime' working arriving Keswick 6.05pm and departing 6.30pm. The 9.45am involved  a LNWR corridor composite that was worked through to Carlisle. Alas, there is no information about how these services were handled at either Cockermouth or Keswick. The only clue is that M&C stock was stabled at Cockermouth. 

[WFPettigrew]

21 hours ago, CKPR said:

Alas, there is no information about how these services were handled at either Cockermouth or Keswick. The only clue is that M&C stock was stabled at Cockermouth. 

 

Interesting, thank you for sharing all this. 

 

I guess the signalbox diagram for Cockermouth, and the working timetable, if such a thing exists (and I seem to remember discussion on the Cumbrian Railways Association chatline not that long ago about William Pit miner's trains that must have referenced a WTT) would show both whether that southern face was cleared for passenger working, and whether it was likely that terminating M&C trains would need to be put over there, out of the way of Penrith-Workington services?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[CKPR]

A proper update on the progress of the C&WJR coke wagons will be forthcoming but here's a workbench picture to show work to date. Just the bolt heads on the side corner plates, 'monkey tails', brake levers & linkage (Wizard Models NER pattern) and the buffer heads to add. And yes, these aren't dumb buffered wagons and have self-contained buffers fitted in extensions to the sole bars. 

 

I am currently wondering if I am the only person still scratch-building pre-group mineral wagons in 4mm, at least in the 'old school' way of using plasticard and brass. 

[CKPR]

Oh, and the extension boards of course! 

[CKPR]

Hmm, nowt like a dose of COVID (pretty grim so Heaven knows what it would be like if I wasn't triple vaccinated) and a week in bed to make one mull over the errors in those C&WJR wagons. The end stanchions need to be removed (here's hoping that the Thixofix can be softened with solvent) and replaced with the wooden ones from the Slaters NER hopper kit to give a clog buffer. Time to raid that  NER hopper 'maxi kit' I've been hoarding for years when I'm feeling up to modelling again. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by CKPR

[CKPR]

Feeling a lot better today so undertook some occupational therapy in the form of redoing the end stanchions. It didn't take too long and the improvement is very evident - I've posed the wagons on the sole reference photograph from 'Cumbrian Railways' vol. 14(1) (Feb. 2022). Hopefully these will be finished off over the holiday weekend and I might then get on and finish No. 7 or restart work on Mealsgate Station building. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by CKPR

[MarcD]

What is the book that the photo can be found?

Marc

[CKPR]

Hi Marc - it's the Cumbrian Railways Association journal from this February. It's a really good article packed with information about the C&WJR wagon fleet and mineral traffic working. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by CKPR

[MarcD]

I will pinch my dad's copy.

Marc

[CKPR]

For the record, I built my models of these wagons on the basis that the sides  were 15' X 4' and the w/b would be 9' as per my earlier models of the C&WJR 10t hoppers and then worked out everything else from there.

[MarcD]

Just got my hands on the article. The second photo I have seen before but the coke wagons are new to me. 

So am I correct in saying that your dimensions are 15ft OH, 4ft high sides and 7ft wide? 5plks on the ends and 4 on the sides? 

The end brakes are interesting ver NER but the Furness had them as well. Is there is a chance that they are Early SDR/NER P5's? A lot of them were sold out of service about the time of WW1.

 

Marc

 

 

[CKPR]

Yes, those are the dimensions I used for these models and I also wondered if they were basically NER wagons, either rebuilds or by design. However, the extended sole bars incorporating the buffer housings don't look NER to me and are very similar to some FR coke wagons and Furness area PO wagons (e.g. North Lonsdale ironworks coke hoppers). There was some correspondence on this very topic between Philip Millard (who has just sadly passed away) and William Hardin-Osborne in the RM in the mid-1960s, with the latter supplying a sketch of this type of extended sole bar / buffer arrangement. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by CKPR

[MarcD]

In the NER coach and wagon book published by the NERA there is a GA of a SDR/NER(CD) coal/coke hopper with this buffer arrangement. From what I was told the were incorporated in to the P5/R2 diagrams, depending on coke raves, as they were dimensionally the same. 

I will see if I can get my hands on the book today.

Marc

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

In the NER coach and wagon book published by the NERA there is a GA of a SDR/NER(CD) coal/coke hopper with this buffer arrangement. From what I was told the were incorporated in to the P5/R2 diagrams, depending on coke raves, as they were dimensionally the same. 

I will see if I can get my hands on the book today.

Marc

 

Brief hi-jack, but since you're here, can you please list any wagons of yours available in 4mil?

 

There seems to be no easy way to determine this via the website.

 

Thanks

[Nick Holliday]

48 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Brief hi-jack, but since you're here, can you please list any wagons of yours available in 4mil?

 

There seems to be no easy way to determine this via the website.

 

Thanks

If you go on their website and then sort by using Price - Low to High you will find the various available  4mm options listed from about £14 to £25. Just pages 2 and 3 at the moment. I suspect Wizard, amongst others, can supply the missing axleboxes and brake gear, and other required bits and pieces.

[Edwardian]

31 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

If you go on their website and then sort by using Price - Low to High you will find the various available  4mm options listed from about £14 to £25. Just pages 2 and 3 at the moment. I suspect Wizard, amongst others, can supply the missing axleboxes and brake gear, and other required bits and pieces.

 

Good bit of lateral thinking, thanks!