First generation DMU questions

[Derekstuart]

Odd DMU working;

 

At Whitby from mid 60's but mostly 70's and early 80's, when there was no loco on hand to shunt the yard, the Station Master used to order it to be done with whichever DMU happened to be available.

 

Although I never saw that personally, it is well documented by rail historians familiar with the area and has been confirmed by retired BR personnel. I am assuming that they wouldn't be able to shunt large loads- especially in the 80's, but I wonder if that might account for the reason you never saw many power-trailer combinations there.

 

Derek

[russ p]

Tom Robertson was his name, sadly no longer around but a true gent and railwayman

[kenw]

That sort of rings a bell with me too.

The green ones probably didn't have them as EMUs worked the line then. Did they have bars?

Just looked that up further in 'The North Eastern Electrics' (Oakwood Press 165).

Pictures show the LNE built North Tyneside stock with sliding doors which don't appear to have droplights, and the BR built South Tyneside stock without bars on their droplights

[kenw]

, but I wonder if that might account for the reason you never saw many power-trailer combinations there.

 

Already mentioned on here, the main reason for power/trailer-car sets not getting to Whitby would have been Nunthorpe bank

[Derekstuart]

Russ/KenW your comments on here have made some very interesting reading indeed. Though the disrespect shown to the Pacer family is out of order!

 

Russ,

It was you that first told me about that DMU shunting IIRC. I thought your were joking but a driver at the NYMR confirmed it to me and since read it in a Ken Hoole book.

 

 

BTW do you know off hand what the maximum gradient is for Nunthorpe? I seem to remember that the "awful" Pacers went up OK, but a couple of years ago I went there on a 156 and I was wondering if we would ever reach the top.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Derekstuart

[russ p]

Nunthorpe bank is 1in 44 Derek, but I think there maybe small bits that are a bit steeper where they put the station in at Gipsy lane.

All the DMU shunting was completely unofficial with Tom driving the unit while the crew went for 'chips' or a brown liquid version of them which came out of a pump!

[Derekstuart]

1 in 44 would make it steeper than the former climb from Whitby to West Cliff if I'm not very much mistaken. (that was 1 in 52)

 

No wonder everything struggles.

 

Earlier on, when you were talking about train crews going to the Whitby chippie, do you mean Siggy's? One time I was there with my Dad we went for a spin in the cab of a (then) brand new Pacer and the train crew made a bee line for Siggy's. I used to go there later myself, but the owner has retired and his son's run it somewhat differently. (people are completely free to interpret "somewhat differently" however they wish)

 

If you go back to Whitby at all, I can recommend Russell's- just a few doors up from where Woolworth's used to be.

 

Sorry for the o/t.

Derek

Edited November 13, 2015 by Derekstuart

[Clive Mortimore]

I have seen a Class 127 DMBS being used as a shunter. I was on a train that was being held outside Cricklewood depot for what seemed a long time. In the depot they were using a DMBS to reform other 127 coaches into trains and placing various cars into the maintenance shed. I think I was the only passenger who was upset when the train did move, it was quite interesting to watch. 

[kenw]

Russ/KenW your comments on here have made some very interesting reading indeed. Though the disrespect shown to the Pacer family is out of order!

Thanks, though with respect, I doubt you'd find anyone who'd the mis-fortune of working pacers when new with much respect or them.

 

They may go up Nunthorpe bank fine but although not one of my routes, I expect it would be a different matter coming down! I suspect I'd have been wanting to stop at the top to pin brakes down! (that is if the gearboxes actually lasted a return trip).

 

They weren't even reliable from one stop to the next.

Just a couple of notable trips with them,

One day going to Sunderland, as usual I try the brake out stopping at Heworth, the first stop to see what it's like... 'hmm seems ok this one'...

approaching the next stop, Boldon Colliery, there was a 30 permanent restriction just before the A19 bridge,

I started braking at the usual point for one of these... into full service.. and still hit it at 50, just stopping at the station!

poor the rest of the way, I have a look round it in the turnback sidings at Sunderland,

and promptly fail it, wasn't even going to work it back to Newcastle.

Another occasion on way back from Sunderland with one that was 'a bit soft' brake straight to full service at Pelaw Jn, and still completely miss Heworth even though that has a quite long platform and you're aiming to stop at the start of it, and gliding gently to a stop with the brakes 'full' on! Another one that got failed!

 

These things were a liability, never mind respect

Edited November 13, 2015 by kenw

[Derekstuart]

Didn't the Southern Region have something similar at their depots- Strawberry Hill for example- using redundant EMU driving motors as shunters?

[cravensdmufan]

Didn't the Southern Region have something similar at their depots- Strawberry Hill for example- using redundant EMU driving motors as shunters?

I believe they did.  I must check that out.

 

Also, Birkenhead North and Hornsey had a number of ex Class 501 emu cars converted into shunters by BREL Doncaster and Wolverton between 1973 and 1980. They worked in pairs being battery locos.  Class 97/7. 97 701 - 97 710.  (Info per 1988 Platform 5.) 

Edited November 13, 2015 by cravensdmufan

[Derekstuart]

Hello KenW

 

I understand what you are saying, and as a driver it is difficult to challenge your authority with them. My late Father (a Traction Inspector at KX- no, I've never heard of a Pacer going that far South either) took me with him one day whilst they were on staff familiarisation trips. The technical bod in charge noted that they hadn't ironed out all the problems and that it would come back to bite them sooner or later. So I have no problems accepting what trained professionals say.

 

What I DO have a problem with is the anorak brigade bemoaning them for replacing their beloved 101's etc- which their father's probably bemoaned for replacing their beloved steam locos- and thus "ruining" lines such as the Esk Valley. But as one senior BR bloke said around 1990 (this was on a staff day special to York one day with a 91/225- the one they ran for staff (and families) to thank them for their help in "modernising" the ECML), when asked about using Pacers on the same railway as the shiny new HST-murderers he commented something like "...if it wasn't for those rail buses then there might BE NO branch lines.

 

I work as a bus depot manager (ex owner- thankfully sold up) and I have a similar situation with bus spotters (10 times worse than train spotters) moaning about Darts and Enviros replacing Leyland's and AEC's and so on. But the cost difference is incredible and likely I'd be shutting routes if it wasn't for the Dart design; same comparison for the 142/3/4.

Nonetheless you posts are proving very interesting. Perhaps (on a new thread?) some anecdotes from North Eastern train crews would be interesting.

Derek

[Clive Mortimore]

I believe they did.  I must check that out.

 

Also, Birkenhead North and Hornsey had a number of ex Class 501 emu cars converted into shunters by BREL Doncaster and Wolverton between 1973 and 1980. They worked in pairs being battery locos.  Class 97/7. 97 701 - 97 710.  (Info per 1988 Platform 5.) 

The ex 501s were also used for OLE maintenance, their roofs were converted to have a flat walkway.

[Titan]

Didn't the Southern Region have something similar at their depots- Strawberry Hill for example- using redundant EMU driving motors as shunters?

 

The 'Beastie' !!!  I think it's modification was pretty much fitting buffers and drop head buckeyes at each end. Might even have got used to rescue the odd Networker if it had not failed too far away.

[kenw]

Hi Derek

 

Sorry but perhaps you'll appreciate then that my opinion of pacers is very much from a driver's perspective, having worked them from their introduction up until the sectorisation split and nothing to do whatever with what 'anorak brigades' may think of them, so my original comments on them were very much in order.

I didn't bemoan the replacement of the 101s either, they being clapped out and struggling to get over 45 up even moderate grades, until it became apparent just how bad the replacements were.

As far as not having ironed out all the problems, or cost compromises are concerned, this is in no way remotely acceptable when discussing (not) having reliably working brakes.

When considering cost they ended up having the brakes substantially modified, and the transmissions replaced on the entire fleet - that hardly worked out cost effective, and in this area they then soon ended up sharing most of the duties they were built for with super-sprinters anyway so it's difficult to see sprinters couldn't have been built instead in the first place.

 

There was one very good side to the pacers though I will admit...

with all our 101s having been shipped off elsewhere (too) promptly on being replaced by them...

there was plenty of turns on 31s, 45s 46s, and 47s with 3 Mk1s as pacer replacements...

though again hardly cost effective for saving branch lines

[Derekstuart]

Hello KenW,

 

I think you might not have read my post. I specifically said that as a driver it is hard to challenge your authoritive appraisal of them.

 

With all respect, I do wish people would bother to read posts before replying to them.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I believe they did.  I must check that out.

 

Also, Birkenhead North and Hornsey had a number of ex Class 501 emu cars converted into shunters by BREL Doncaster and Wolverton between 1973 and 1980. They worked in pairs being battery locos.  Class 97/7. 97 701 - 97 710.  (Info per 1988 Platform 5.) 

Borrowed two pairs of those battery conversions from Hornsey to haul a materials train from Kentish Town to Barbican. Just about made it up the bank into Farringdon platform with a train of six OBAs of signalling equipment.

[SRman]

Didn't the Southern Region have something similar at their depots- Strawberry Hill for example- using redundant EMU driving motors as shunters?

They did indeed.

 

London Transport also often used redundant  driving motors as tractor units and shunters, often in matched pairs.

[roythebus]

The 501 battery cars also had a good turn of speed. I worked a pair one evening towards Hertford East, followed a stooping train on the block all the way with a maximum speed of about 55mph! The driver reckoned they must have replaced the Ever-Ready U2 batteries with Duracell!

 

With electric traction the motors will eventually reach their balancing speed and not go any faster. With this only wired to go to parallel with no weak field, that was around 55.

 

The smell of battery acid when working on the Northern City line during the rebuilding is a lasting memory of them.

[cheesysmith]

I remember when I was working for BR out of Sheffield, when Neville hill still had some 1st gen DMUs. We pulled up at chapel town station, loaded up, and the guard gave the right away to the driver (buzz buzz). The DMU moved about a 1/4 of a coach length before stoping as the driver had to do a quick rev up of the engines to build up the brakes. The guard was still at his door, as we were still at the platform, and saw a woman running upto the train. He jump off, said to the woman "get on here" (meaning the guards door), turned around to point where he meant, to find out the train had buggered off and left him behind.

[Derekstuart]

That brings me to a question I was wondering earlier.

 

I always understood that 1st Gen units were pure vacuum brakes. But one article I read some time back said although they were controlled by vacuum the actual actuators were air (pressure) powered.

 

ISTR my Dad telling me that the throttles were air powered (on at least some classes).

 

I remember seeing abnormally large "air tanks" on some classes, far larger than one would expect for a small DMU, so I assumed this was a vacuum reservoir (and trying to explain to someone that you can indeed have a reservoir full of nothing wasn't that easy). Of course, as a vacuum reservoir can only ever operate a maximum 'pressure' of minus one atmosphere, to be effective it has to be very large, compared to a pressure cylinder that could be at 10 atmosphere and thus 1/10th of its size. So that's what I assumed I was looking at.

 

 

PS What happened to the guard? I suppose without buzzing once for stop/ don't move, it was his fault.

[russ p]

Hi Derek, DMU brakes were twin pipe quick release vacuum.

The reservoirs were connected by the blue 30in pipe.the train pipe was 0-21 in and was compatible with normal vacuum braked vehicles or loco's. No air was involved at all. Air was used for the electro pneumatic (EP) valves.

These were how the driving controls selected direction, gears and one of four throttle positions.

Hope this helps

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Russ

 

That is exactly what I thought. I think the author of the article I read had been confused and assumed "air reservoir" meant that it had to be positively charged. There are many people who claim that you cannot bottle something that isn't there- such as a vacuum cylinder.

 

Of course such nonsense is easily proven wrong by getting an empty drinks bottle, squeezing the air out of it, putting the neck in a bowl of water and letting go of the bottle. It's quite worrying what mistakes "professional" magazines make. I've found another one recently that is similar.

[russ p]

A lot of magazines anoy me by insisting brake cylinders are called actuators especially 37 for some reason.

The closest the railway has is the brake cylinders on modern wagons which are sometimes referred to as actuators as they are very similar to road vehicle air brake equipment

[Derekstuart]

What's the difference, Russ? Surely the two terms are interchangeable. Like car and automobile or tomarto and tomayto (sic).

Edited November 15, 2015 by Derekstuart