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Dimensions of steel channel used on the ends of wooden open wagons?

jjnewitt

By jjnewitt,
in UK Prototype Questions

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jjnewitt

jjnewitt

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Bit of a long shot this. When the bottom two planks on the ends of wooden open wagons were replaced with steel channel what size of channel was used? The width looks to be about 6" and is fairly easy to get from photographs but it's difficult to be sure how deep it is. It looks to be deeper than the planking, Is this correct? Alternatively does anyone know of a picture of the inside of a wagon so fitted? Plenty of pictures of the outside but I haven't found one of the inside yet!

 

Cheers,

Justin

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Boris

Boris

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Bit of a long shot this. When the bottom two planks on the ends of wooden open wagons were replaced with steel channel what size of channel was used? The width looks to be about 6" and is fairly easy to get from photographs but it's difficult to be sure how deep it is. It looks to be deeper than the planking, Is this correct? Alternatively does anyone know of a picture of the inside of a wagon so fitted? Plenty of pictures of the outside but I haven't found one of the inside yet!

 

Cheers,

Justin

Our shock open is quite a bit deeper than that, its 8-10 deep, I'll measure it today and get back to you.

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jjnewitt

jjnewitt

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Hi Justin,

 

British Railway Goods Wagons in Colour by Hendry has an excellent close up of a 'High' in this situation....the steel channels appear identical in height to the main planks of the body.

 

Dave 

 

Hi Dave,

That was certainly the case on some and in particular the LMS D.1892 that I've been loooking closely at recently. The planks did seem to vary in height though between diagrams and companies. I definately seem to recall some (maybe GWR) where two and a half planks have been taken out in order to get the channel in.

 

It's likely to be a standard rolled steel channel, the attached document gives the sizes available. Note these are the old tapered flange channels, not the current parallel flange ones.

 

attachicon.gif151015164244_0001.pdf

Hi GIz,

Thanks for that! It's really helpful. I imagine it was standard section as well. I didn't think to look for that.  Looking through the list I imagine the section I'm particularly interested in was 6" x 3" though could potentially be 6" x 3.5". At least it narrows it down!

 

The interest stems from dabbling with some etches to convert the Parkside steel ended 5 plank open into the earlier LMS diagram 1892. I've done a standard one and wanted to have a go at doing a version with the replacement steel channel.

 

post-13847-0-47842200-1444927342_thumb.jpg

 

Thanks both,

Justin

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Boris

Boris

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Thanks Boris that would be great.

 

Justin

Bizarrely enough the channel on the Shoc open is 4 inches in height, and there is a thin (ish) wood fillet to make it up to the correct thickness for the rest of the planks.  This is taken off the end that hasn't been bounced off a bridge and still has the original BR planking from when it went into CME service.

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hmrspaul

hmrspaul

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These pairs look to be 6 inches or so, and not very deep http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenwood/e311fa820http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenwood/e31d3aadd http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/eec700e2  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/edc91fd1  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e8b3c99d   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1a3b9db6  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e36bedcfa  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e3aab34b4  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e2e708b94   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e3023b6a3  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1caa0897  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e2142e11b http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1a39c7c6 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e31544d88    I've never done this before and not realised how common it appears to have been on LNER open merchandise wagons.

 

A nice variant, possible with the 7mm Parkside model http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e236bc508 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3d7ba771 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3faee231  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3fab2f86

 

Paul

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hmrspaul

hmrspaul

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As an aside the steel channel on our Shock Open is actually the other way round so its flat side out, just to cloud the issue further....

That's interesting as I thought in some of my photos that the lower 'planks' looked rather neat as if they might be steel channel reversed as you suggest.

 

I haven't looked through my shock open photos.

 

OT but the SR used reverse channel on the side of their Ling and Tunny for the 'plank' which hit the door stops.

 

Paul

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jjnewitt

jjnewitt

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These pairs look to be 6 inches or so, and not very deep http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenwood/e311fa820http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenwood/e31d3aadd http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/eec700e2  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/edc91fd1  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e8b3c99d   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1a3b9db6  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e36bedcfa  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e3aab34b4  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e2e708b94   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e3023b6a3  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1caa0897  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e2142e11b http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e1a39c7c6 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/e31544d88    I've never done this before and not realised how common it appears to have been on LNER open merchandise wagons.

 

A nice variant, possible with the 7mm Parkside model http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e236bc508 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3d7ba771 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3faee231  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e3fab2f86

 

Paul

 

The SR 8 plank is rather fun. The Cambrian kit is a potential option in 4mm scale. I might have to order one and have a play with that.

 

Looking closely at drawings for the LMS D.1892 the channel on the vehicles I've been looking at would apear to be 8" wide (the bottom two planks together are a little under 16"). 

 

The replacement channel seems to be quite common on the GWR 5 and half planks as well.

 

As an aside the steel channel on our Shock Open is actually the other way round so its flat side out, just to cloud the issue further....

 

You learn something new every day! I wonder how many vehicles were so fitted? After a quick look through Paul's website there are a few open wagons with potential inward facing channel:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lneropenwood/h20aa1133#h20aa1133

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/h27137606#h27137606

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/h3396be06#h3396be06

 

This might be a bit cheeky Boris but is there any chance the next time you're near that Shocopen of a picture of the inside of the end in question? It would be very interesting to see how it's been fitted.

 

Justin

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Boris

Boris

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That would pose a problem because in preservation somebody has put a wood face on the inside to disguise the fact that the wagon has a steel fillet.  I will however crawl round underneath the headstocks and see what I can find out.

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hmrspaul

hmrspaul

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That would pose a problem because in preservation somebody has put a wood face on the inside to disguise the fact that the wagon has a steel fillet.  I will however crawl round underneath the headstocks and see what I can find out.

I wonder if that is how they would be in revenue use? Having an open steel channel on a wagon used for delicate loads wouldn't be very suitable. Wagons with full steel ends - usually corrugated as LMS inspiration had vertical planking inside the ends.

 

Paul

 

Just noticed this shock open appears have two narrow channels (4 inch?) as the lowest end plank, and facing inwards. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brshockopenwood/e327734fd

and also http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brshockopenwood/e327734fd   Oops no correct that these wagons have a thick floor and then a thin plank below the main 5 planks and the end of both the floor and that lowest narrow plank appear to have been steel. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/e2841e70cWith Trev Mann I measured one of these SR design shocks but it was more than 30 years ago (probably this one in 1984 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brshockopenwood/e5eca9be ). I don't have the field drawings available.

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jjnewitt

jjnewitt

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In 7mm Parkside PS27 of the GWR open O32 and 33 comes with an optional end which has the steel channel.

 

Paul

 

I did a quick search for the Parkside kit and they've done the channel the same depth as the sides. Another trawl for still existant prototypes with steel ends revealed a GWR 5 and a half plank at Didcot:

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9054

I don't know if it's still in this state (which looks pretty untouched to me) but I'm hopefully going up to Didcot soon so I'll have a look. I can't find any pictures online that show the inside of the ends on this one.

 

There's one of the SR 8 planks with steel channel fitted that resides most of the time at the engine shed at Swanage. There are a few photos with good angles for seeing inside from the bridge but it's always got coal in it (which is why it is where it is):

http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=4550438163&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2Fflickr_hvmnd.cgi%3Fmethod%3DGET%26page%3D2%26photo_number%3D50%26tag_mode%3Dall%26search_type%3DTags%26originput%3D80078%26sorting%3DInterestingness%26photo_type%3D250%26noform%3Dt%26search_domain%3DTags%26sort%3DInterestingness%26textinput%3D80078%23pic4550438163&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/37318278@N02/4550438163

 

Justin

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  • 5 weeks later...
jjnewitt

jjnewitt

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I had the chance to get to Didcot on Sunday and found their five and a half plank hiding around the back of the engine shed.

 

post-13847-0-59527000-1447750274_thumb.jpg

 

post-13847-0-67894700-1447750287_thumb.jpg

 

The steel channel used was 7" x 2 3/4" (definately 2 3/4" not 3"), the internal depth 2 3/8" and the thickness of the planking a nominal 2 1/2". Going back and looking at the LMS open I was drawing up the channel on that was also 7" so I'll assume it was the same stuff. I can get on and finish the artwork now and then have a look at other things. I quite fancy one of those SR 8 planks with the reinforced ends.

 

Justin

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giz

giz

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Interesting, those aren't standard rolled steel channels. They look like they were formed from sheet steel, possibly cold rolled, note the corner is radiused on both faces unlike the buffer beam which has a square corner on the outside face.

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hmrspaul

hmrspaul

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Interesting. I would certainly agree that it appears to have been pressed for the job at a workshop (why assume Swindon???). In my experience of measuring hundreds of wagons channel is usually clearly marked with the manufacturer (never seen that modelled :jester: ) and certainly has very square corners. So presumably the depth of these replacements will vary for each wagon type if the planking is of different widths.

 

Fortunately the Parkside 7mm kit of a GWR open merchandise comes with a choice of ends!

 

Paul

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