Gordon A Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I am researching Bitterly yard at the foot of Clee Hill incline in Shropshire. According to the signal box diagram for Bitterly two catch points on the incline were operated from levers within Bitterly signal box. The lower one was near enough to be operating by conventional point rodding. The catch point further up the incline I believe was two far away to be rod operated, so I surmise would be operated by an electric point motor. When did electric point motors come into general use? Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 As far as I can make out from the low-res scan on the SRS website, the upper set of points 'A' are labelled as being worked by a 'separate' (?) lever in SB. As they have been drawn in the normally-closed position, then I'm not sure what function they would serve as a trap-point. Do not forget also that the Board of Trade limits on mechanical operation of points did not apply on goods-only lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Thanks for the replies. i have splashed out on the Signal Record Society disk and printed the box diagram. The upper point B (Points A are for the far end of the storage siding on the Ludlow side of the road bridge.) worked by an independent lever. The point is shown as being se to the main as normal Your reply to my other question about the size of frame fitted to Bitterly box - 13 lever stud - means that the lever for point B is not part of the frame as all the levers up to 13 are accounted for, excluding B. My thinking is that point B was too far up the incline to be conventionally operated by rods hence electric motor. I need to do further research as to what point B was for and how far away from Bitterly box it was. Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2015 Thanks for the replies. i have splashed out on the Signal Record Society disk and printed the box diagram. The upper point B (Points A are for the far end of the storage siding on the Ludlow side of the road bridge.) worked by an independent lever. The point is shown as being se to the main as normal Your reply to my other question about the size of frame fitted to Bitterly box - 13 lever stud - means that the lever for point B is not part of the frame as all the levers up to 13 are accounted for, excluding B. My thinking is that point B was too far up the incline to be conventionally operated by rods hence electric motor. I need to do further research as to what point B was for and how far away from Bitterly box it was. Gordon A Bristol Sounds as it point B was probably operated by a local lever or ground frame - this would seem entirely logical on a single line mineral branch (assuming that is what that section of line was). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Stationmaster, On the signal box diagram "Points B worked by a separate lever in SB (Independent of locking frame.)." I have been studying 1:10,560 maps and the two articles in Railway Bylines, neither have given me any indication as to what the reason for Point B was. I am not aware of any siding off the lower half of the incline, which was 1,988 yards long, the longest standard gauge incline of its type in Britain, hence my assumption that Point B was another catch point. Did / do the railways maintain any form of detailed track plans that might answer this question? The 1913 survey drawn by GWR engineers does not show any siding off the incline, neither does it show a trap point at the foot of the incline. This might have been a later addition when the layout was changed. Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2015 Stationmaster, On the signal box diagram "Points B worked by a separate lever in SB (Independent of locking frame.)." I have been studying 1:10,560 maps and the two articles in Railway Bylines, neither have given me any indication as to what the reason for Point B was. I am not aware of any siding off the lower half of the incline, which was 1,988 yards long, the longest standard gauge incline of its type in Britain, hence my assumption that Point B was another catch point. Did / do the railways maintain any form of detailed track plans that might answer this question? The 1913 survey drawn by GWR engineers does not show any siding off the incline, neither does it show a trap point at the foot of the incline. This might have been a later addition when the layout was changed. Gordon A Bristol It sounds as if it might have been a slotted catch point. There would be no need to interlock it with any other lever assuming there were no signals involved. It might be worth trying to run to earth a copy of the Sectional Appendix because it might be mentioned in there or there might be an Instruction which gives a hint of its purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 From looking at the low-res web version (Gordon may be able to add more to this) then point 'B' was clearly IMHO [a] set normally closed and NOT sprung nor slotted (there are other points specifically marked as slotted. It would seem a curious sort of safety feature if it required the signalman to operate his lever in order to divert any runaways etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2015 If well away from the box and worked by an independent lever was it double wire worked? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 If well away from the box and worked by an independent lever was it double wire worked? Hmmm what is double wire worked? I studied the pictures I have copies of this evening. They show a single run of point rodding heading up the incline beyond the lower catch point, so my thoughts about an electric point motor have been blown out of the water. As explained on my other Bitterly thread I cannot find any evidence of a catch point or siding further up the incline. I have looked at the relevant 1 : 10,560 OS maps and a 1931 GWR Engineers plan in Railway Bylines. RailWest You are correct according to the signal box diagram Point B is normally set for the main (incline) and would have to be pulled to divert any wagons. Also Point B is not noted as being sprung or slotted as a number of other points at the foot of the incline are. Gordon A Still puzzled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Wire-worked points = points worked by wire rather than rods :-) Essentially a 'continental' practice, but used in the UK in places, often for working goods loops beyond the normal limits for rodding. In essence 1 wire to pull the point to reverse, a second wire to pull it back to normal, hence the 'double-wire' term. See here http://www.signalbox.org/gallery/lm/barrowhillupsdgs.phpfor the typical sort of 'lever' used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Thanks RailWest, I note in the link mention of maximum length of rod operation is 350 yards. Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 >>>I note in the link mention of maximum length of rod operation is 350 yards... But see my post No 2, not applicable to goods-only lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Ok, so what would the practical maximum length of rod operation be? Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 350yds is 4.2m in 4mm scale, how much more do you need? The practical limit would not be much more. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 24, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2015 The practical maximum for rod working depends on the alignment of the track, type of rail, length of switches, number of ends on the lever, .......... Although 350 yards is the maximum in the Board of Trade Requirements for Passenger Lines and Recommendations for Goods Lines, there are points which could be a heavy pull at 100 yards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Thanks for the information chaps. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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