Use (or not) of Brake Vans on coal trains running to NCB collieries

[Frank S.]

Hi Guys,

I got some excellent replies to my last question, so I'll try another one. This is directed to those with knowledge of how coal trains going from BR to NCB lines were operated.

 

On the layout I'm planning  I'm including 3 exchange sidings about long enough to each hold say 15 4whl wagons, which would be semi-permenently coupled.

Location is the Lancashire coalfields.     Period is late 1950's / Early 1960's.

Scenario is :

BR loco brings in a train of empties which it shunts into one of the exchange sidings and then goes off to the shed for watering, etc.

Q1. Re the BR Brake Van would this remain attached to the wagons or be removed ???

 

NCB loco comes from the colliery, couples onto the empties and takes them to the colliery (ie Fiddleyard) for loading.

Q2A. Would the NCB loco bring an NCB Brake Van to go on the trip from exchange sidings to colliery ??? (I can't recall ever seeing an NCB Brake Van in any of the photos I have of Lancashire coalfield trains).

Q.2B OR Would the NCB loco couple a BR Brake Van onto the empties for the trip to the collieries ???      But then ........

Q.2C Would BR allow the NCB to "borrow" their brake vans ???                                                                   But, then ........

Q.2D Would BR allow the NCB to take the train of empties on the trip to the colliery (partly over BR lines, partly over NCB lines) without the train having a brake van of some sort ???

A bit of a dilema !

Period is early 1960's, but even before health & safety went berserk with regulations, I can't see the railway inspectorate warming to the idea of a train of loose coupled wagons running around without a brakevan.

 

 

Any thoughts and comments much appreciated

Thanx,

Frank Savery,

w-a-y down south in Tasmania

 

[Fat Controller]

Very few NCB systems had brake vans; the only ones that spring to mind are the extensive network around Ashington (which also had proper signalling in places) and the Littleton Colliery system on Cannock Chase. Other, often extensive, systems seemed to manage without them, but then the cuts of wagons were short by main line standards, and the loco brake would have been adequate.

One of the Kent collieries used brakevans, but not in the normal way: they used a couple of vac-fitted 'Toads' as a fitted head.

[Arthur]

Frank, could I just clarify something about your proposed operations. Will your NCB loco's be hauling their trains partly over BR lines? You indicate that, and it's by no means unknown, but generally speaking the lines from colliery to exchange sidings would be NCB lines. The only example of regular workings of colliery loco's over the main lines in south Lancs was, if I remember rightly, from Haydock colliery.

 

Do you have a personal link with the Lancashire colliery lines? I was brought up not far from the old Manchester Collieries system radiating out from Walkden.

 

Edit: Here's a link (scroll down) showing one of Haydocks well tanks 'Parr' crossing the Liverpool-Manchester line.

 

http://www.8dassociation.btck.co.uk/TheLiverpoolManchesterLNWR

[Michael Edge]

As has been said above brake vans were very rare on colliery systems where it was quite normal to work long trains of unbraked wagons - in Wales at least on some fearsome gradients as well. Normal practice at exchange sidings was that a BR loco would arrive either light engine (and brake van) or with empties. Empties would be exchanged for fulls and the train would depart, NCB loco would take empties back to the pit and bring down more fulls, not necessarily in full train lengths, this would depend on gradients and available traffic on each shift. The change to fixed sets came with MGR workings in the 1970s and even these had to be split at some pits. In most cases the brake vans worked with the loco and stayed with it on colliery turns, don't forget there was a BR guard involved as well, he wouldn't want to be sent off to the pit for the rest of the shift and in steam days he couldn't ride back on the loco.

[Respite]

This subject has already been dealt with on RMweb in the UK standard gauge industrial systems thread.

 

NCB locos would not use a BR brake van on their own system. BR locos would collect loaded wagons at the exchange sidings and then attach the brake van before departing.

 

I did once see a set of empties left at Bold Colliery with the brake van left attached as there wasn't a set of loaded wagons to go out. I assume BR intended returning later to collect it and the train.
NCB loco Joseph shunted the brake van off into a parallel road before taking the entire train up the yard. On the Maesteg system I have seen 30 x 21ton mineral wagons handled by loco Linda without a brake van, this was a daily occurrence.

 

There is a photo in Lancashire of NCB loco Humphrey operating on BR lines through Howe Bridge station with seven wagons and a brake van. This was because Howe Bridge and Gibfield collieries shared coal washing facilities. The photo is in the Lancashire Triangle book see the Triangle press website for details.

 

At Granville Colliery in Shropshire the NCB loco used to come up from the exchange sidings with a brake van in the middle of the train, when the gradient steepened they used to split the train with the brake van used to hold the rear part of the train. This practice seems to have been discontinued before the system closed. I assume it was the NCBs own van.

 

Comrie Colliery also used a brake van on the line  to the colliery, its use was erratic and depended on when the manager put his foot down about including it, normally after a runaway.

[DOCJACOB]

Agree fully covered in the industrial systems thread.

 

The Comrie brakevan was a very fetching colour of blue with red and yellow diagonal end stripes. Currently in more sensible LMS Bauxite at SRPS in Bo'ness.

 

One of the Comrie Austerities was in a similar gaudy livery.

 

Brakevans also used between Michael Pit and exchange sidings, and also extensively used on Wemyss Private

 

 

[Frank S.]

Thanks for all the info guys, and thanks to RESPITE for putting me onto the UK SG Industrial  thread, never noticed it , ...err extended Senior Moment.

 

The rest is pretty well directed to ARTHUR Reading one of your posts on the NCB Brakevans thread in UK SG Industrial has pretty well answered my questions ie "I think that anywhere that the NCB had running powers over BR lines the regulations demanded the use of a brakevan" This is exactly my situation. The layout I'm planning is a fairly important branchline with a ''branch off a branch" leading to a colliery and industrial estate.Due to space considerations the exchange sidings have to be located at MY Station and then the "branch off a branch " passes through a couple of BR Halts before reaching the private rails of the colliery and Industrial Estate.

 

The info contained in the 'NCB Brakevans' thread has been inspirational and I'm planning a couple of NCB Brakevans, one in the 'tasteful' NCB Blue with yellow ends and one that looks as though a heavy shunt would cause it to collapse

 

ARTHUR asked : 'Do you have a personal link with the Lancashire colliery lines? I was brought up not far from the old Manchester Collieries system radiating out from Walkden'.

YES, Although I've lived in Australia for 45 years, I'm originally a 'randy scouse 'git' and soon after I left school I got an electrical apprenticeship with NCB at Walkden Colliery. However this was very short lived, as it didn't take me long to work out that a) I was scared to death of electricity and b)I was even more scared of playing with electricity in the bowels of the earth

A few years later my parents moved to Wigan and soon after I married and emigrated to the Land of OZ. I became a died in the wool NG modeller and for 50 years I pretty well lost interest in Lancashire and Coal.

 

It was only this year when I went back to the UK for a trip that my interest resurfaced. Previous trips had been spent travelling the country chasing NG trains, but, this time I stayed mostly around Wigan + Liverpool & Manchester and when I got down to tracing old routes (Wigan Junction Railway, Springs Branch, Tyldesley, East Lancs Railway, etc) that I found the subject fascinating. So I'm making up for lost time and knowledge by asking questions like these of the 'Brains Trust"

 

If anyone is interested in corresponding off-line on the subject of the Lancashire Coalfields and modelling them, my e-mail address is :

franksavery@bigpond.com

 

Thanks for all your help so far, bound to be lots more questions to come

 

Cheers,

Frank Savery,

w-a-y down South in Tasmania