3D printing demonstrations at model railway exhibitions

[rue_d_etropal]

A simple enquiry, I hope. From the model railway exhibitions I have attended as a visitor, I have seen only one 3d printer owned by the club demonstrating what it can do(and can not do) but nothing more general. I think there has been a demonstration of a large(expensive) machine at Warley, but I have not seen anything along the lines of model demonstrators.

There has been a lot of chat here on the forum about 3D printing, but is it not now time to have it out at exhibitions, alongside other modelling skills being demonstrated.

[big jim]

i'd be interested in seeing a 3D printer in action at a show

 

as you may know i was 3D scanned by alan of modelu at the great electric show in gaydon a few months back and the results of that are now available to buy, however an issue with printing at shows may be that the scans done on the day needed 'tidying up' to be able to be succesfully printed (ie digitally removing the tressle i was leaning on) so unless its printing pre scanned items its a timely process, it would be good to be scanned and printed on the same day but that would probably need a team of operators to achieve, one to scan, one to edit the image, one to print etc

 

admittedly i dont know how long a OO figure print takes to do or the cost, you wouldnt want to be printing items only to be binned or sit unused at the end of the show if the materials are expensive

[Marbelup]

I helped another modeller with a display at the 2014 Exhibition in Perth, Western Australia. He had his 3D printer working, but it took all day to print a small open wagon in S scale. In hindsight, choosing some small items which would print quickly would have been an improvement. Also, it was using ABS and the fumes were an issue. PLA would have been better. I have a Makerbot printer at home (on loan) and I have a couple of very simple shapes which are good to print as a demonstration for visitors.

 

At the exhibition, I had a static display of finished models (all S scale) but also some printed parts that people could handle and have a close look at. I have previously designed a freight bogie in Sn3.5 scale and, prior to the exhibition, I printed a larger version to suit some 45 mm wheel sets which I had on hand. The large scale bogie was a good print to show people. A lot of visitors at the Exhibition had heard about 3D printing but have never seen anything that had been 3D printed or seen a printer in action, so there was quite a lot of interest.

[rue_d_etropal]

Richard, I think that possibly explains why there are not many demonstrations, but it is not just about showing off one of the type of 3D printing, but also showing what it can do.

Picking something that can be done easily is a good start. The club I saw using one last year was using it to print N scale building walls. Even then it took 45 minutes to print one piece. It was first time I had seen any type of 3D printer in action, and it generated a lot of interest.

As I said this is only one type of 3D printing, and it would also need something about other processes, which can produce even more detailed items, but not at home. Even with just samples of what can be printed, especially items which can not be produced by any other method, I have found there is a lot of interest. It is approach that is initially a lot cheaper than buying your own printer, and might tempt others to have a go.

 

3D scanning is another part of the technology, which people are starting to find out about. There are a few companies now offering miniatures of yourself, but it does not seem to be growing as fast as some hoped.

As for wastage, that is no more of a problem than for those doing other demonstration of modelling. Most demos are based around models the demonstrators are planning to use., If there is any potential of something being thrown in the bin, then it is actually a lot easier to recycle 3D printed plastics as it is possible to identify the exact type of plastic and recycle it properly.

[big jim]

There are a few companies now offering miniatures of yourself, but it does not seem to be growing as fast as some hoped.

 

I dont know about that, i seem to be generating a bit of interest in miniture and while at the electric train show alan seemed to have a constant stream of customers waiting to be scanned, there were a lot of 'heads round the door' while alan was scanning various people/components etc, i should imagine mainly out of curiosity, i was one of them earlier on in the day but seeing the scanning technology in action on someone else prompted me to have it done myself

 

as technology improves and becomes cheaper i can see there being more and more 'grass roots' club based 3D printing and scanning demos at shows, however i should imagine trying to convince 'older' club members to spend club funds on a 3D printer would be a challenge too!

 

The club i used to belong to (with an average age of 60+) had debated going dcc for 2 years and still cant decide so a 3D printer would blow their minds!!

[rue_d_etropal]

We have one big supermarket chain offering miniatures, but have not heard of others. The business area which I assume has taken it on is the wedding business area. All those miniature brides and grooms on cakes, and the family wanting copies. If that is not happening now, then there is something wrong.

There is no need to buy a 3D printer. Those clubs and individuals are doing it to have a go, and obviously have the time to fine tune the printing process. It is something some find enjoyable, although the actual process involved in 3D printing interests me, but not enough to get my own printer. I prefer to do the design work, and have someone else do the manufacture. For me 3D printing is not that clever technically. In effect it is only really traditional 2D printing with an extra dimension. The results are 'magical', but will be accepted in the same way as 2D printing in the future.

The average age of our small club is quite high, and I would not expect any interest in getting a 3D printer. But, when I show the others some of my 3D prints, they are amazed that it is possible to produce a complex shape such as a complete loco body in one piece. My star item, though, is my spiral staircase, which was actually a lot easier to design, but has the wow factor. I have attempted to scratchbuild and kit build models of spiral staircases and know it is not easy, and to print it in one piece, it is even more incredible. I am also not certain if it could be done on the average small 3d printer.

It is also too easy to get carried away with the technology. Some things are better suited to laser cutting, and silhouette cutting . This is one reason why it is important to engage with general public on the subject.

[Gordon H]

A simple enquiry, I hope. From the model railway exhibitions I have attended as a visitor, I have seen only one 3d printer owned by the club demonstrating what it can do(and can not do) but nothing more general. I think there has been a demonstration of a large(expensive) machine at Warley, but I have not seen anything along the lines of model demonstrators.

There has been a lot of chat here on the forum about 3D printing, but is it not now time to have it out at exhibitions, alongside other modelling skills being demonstrated.

 

There have been a number of shows I have attended over the past couple of years, either visiting or exhibiting, where actual 3D printing has been demonstrated, notably by Isinglass Models.

At this year's Ally Pally show, we also demonstrated 3D printing on the MERG stand.

What did surprise me was that at Scaleforum (I think), there was a stand demonstrating the scanning of visitors, yet apparently not taking the obvious next step of printing them out immediately afterwards. Whether it is time consuming to process the resulting data to the stage where that can be done was not clear, but as a demo it would be rather more impressive than just showing one aspect or the other.

[big jim]

What did surprise me was that at Scaleforum (I think), there was a stand demonstrating the scanning of visitors, yet apparently not taking the obvious next step of printing them out immediately afterwards. Whether it is time consuming to process the resulting data to the stage where that can be done was not clear, but as a demo it would be rather more impressive than just showing one aspect or the other.

that was alan from modelu, i'm sure he can explain why he didnt print there and then if he spots this thread but as i put above he is a one man band so i should imagine time is an issue

 

i know my figures took a few weeks to arrive due to the backlog from scaleforum and the ones he was doing great electric show

[peter220950]

What did surprise me was that at Scaleforum (I think), there was a stand demonstrating the scanning of visitors, yet apparently not taking the obvious next step of printing them out immediately afterwards. Whether it is time consuming to process the resulting data to the stage where that can be done was not clear, but as a demo it would be rather more impressive than just showing one aspect or the other.

 

 

I'm not sure how much work is involved in converting the scan files to print but I'm pretty sure it takes a lot longer to print than the scan takes, so it would not be a sensible option, as a backlog would soon build up. Time taken on setting up and sorting it out would also slow down the scanning process. - Maybe we're all getting too used to instant gratification.

 

I believe he prints multiple figures at once as the machine can then print more in a set time and presumably incur less wear on the machine as each pass of the print head can be more productive, a bit like trying to print out a page of text rather than individual words on separate pages, but again I assume this takes time to set up.

 

Anyway if he could print out straight away he would have to get another job for the rest of the week .

 

Peter

[Gordon H]

I'm not sure how much work is involved in converting the scan files to print but I'm pretty sure it takes a lot longer to print than the scan takes, so it would not be a sensible option, as a backlog would soon build up. Time taken on setting up and sorting it out would also slow down the scanning process. - Maybe we're all getting too used to instant gratification.

 

I believe he prints multiple figures at once as the machine can then print more in a set time and presumably incur less wear on the machine as each pass of the print head can be more productive, a bit like trying to print out a page of text rather than individual words on separate pages, but again I assume this takes time to set up.

If anything, I would think printing multiple figures at once would cause rather more wear to a printer, as for each layer printed the mechanism would not only be printing each item, but also moving a distance between them every time as well, which all adds to the print time too.

Anyway, no doubt there is a fine line to be drawn between set-up time, print time, printer speed, etc, etc.

[jonhall]

At a practical level, there is quite a lot of reliance on the xyz axis all being set up right, I can't imagine anyone with a really good machine wanting to subject it to the vibrations and shocks of travel to and from an exhibition. There are a number of people who have bought lower spec machines along to shows, which certainly give the flavour of how they work and what they could be used for.

 

Jon

[rue_d_etropal]

A simple 3D printing machine can show the way it actually works. It is something I have tried to explain to visitors, but I can tell not everyone can see it. Not worried about the exact detail. Also I think some people get the impression that they only need a low cost machine to do high quality printing. It would be great to be able to show off one of the big professional machines but that is not practical, and even then there would not be time to actually print anything worthwhile.

Maybe using video on computer might help, but is something else that needs to be taken and set up.

My way is is take samples of what can be printed and to try and explain the processes. I don't baffle people with science, I don't even know some of the scientic names in the process, but I do have a reasonable idea how the different processes work, and what they can and can not do.

[ben racey]

I did a demo a few years back at warley with friends also interested in the process. I didn't have an actual printer, just my laptop with a few videos, material demos and output (4mm scale Irish broad gauge). Got lots of interest and didn't stop talking all weekend! Circumstances don't currently allow a whole weekend away to repeat it sadly!

[alanbuttler]

Hi all, thought I'd give a bit of background on the printing process and scan editing that I do.    The scanning process is quick, 2-3 minutes depending on the pose, that is the easiest part thankfully which means at a busy show I can get through quite a lot of scans in a day.  Editing each scan takes about 10-15 minutes, though not all of that time is actually doing anything, it might be waiting for the model to export, or a solidify process to execute.   At quiet moments at shows when I have help on the stand I usually start this process to save time when I get back to the workshop.

 

Back at the workshop I process the first batch of scans, enough to fill the build area of the printer.  I use a resin based DLP printer which uses a HD projector to project slices of the models into a vat of light sensitive resin.  The resin cures a slice at a time with a stepper motor raising the build platform 30 microns between each layer projection.  With this method (and others) it takes the same amount of time/movement to produce one figure as it would say 30 figures in 4mm scale.  

 

A complete batch of 4mm figures takes about 4 hours to print.  Once completed, excess resin is drained off and the model is removed from the printer and placed in an ultrasonic bath in cleaning alcohol for 10 minutes.  This removes any remaining uncured resin from the nooks and crannies. The model is then rinsed in clean water and post cured under UV light for an hour.  

None of these processes lend themselves well to an exhibition environment!  Though not impossible, it's not something I'd do.  The major point is the calibration of the machines is very fine, especially when I use them to print the 4mm point rodding, so moving the machines even around the workshop is something I do as seldom as possible.

 

Hope that helps, always happy to share information on the processes and what is possible.  

[Gordon H]

I use a resin based DLP printer which uses a HD projector to project slices of the models into a vat of light sensitive resin.  The resin cures a slice at a time with a stepper motor raising the build platform 30 microns between each layer projection.  With this method (and others) it takes the same amount of time/movement to produce one figure as it would say 30 figures in 4mm scale.  

 

This is a radically different print technology to the heated plastic filament method more commonly used by hobbyists, so the movement timing and wear considerations discussed previously are effectively null and void as the mechanism effectively only has one axis.

Out of interest, how long does it take to project a slice? Is the time per slice dominated by the curing time or the projection? What is the vertical resolution achieved?

[Marbelup]

There are several threads in this forum by Rabs, showing excellent results from this type of printer.  However, it seems limited to smallish items, rather than complete wagons, etc., at least in 4 mm scale or larger.  Rabs mainly works in 2 mm scale.

[Grovenor]

What is the vertical resolution achieved?

 

 

Alan said, The resin cures a slice at a time with a stepper motor raising the build platform 30 microns between each layer projection.

So that would seem to be the vertical resolution.  And apparently 4 hours for 4mm figures which would be 24mm high, might be difficult to break that down between projection, curing and movement?

Regards

[alanbuttler]

This is a radically different print technology to the heated plastic filament method more commonly used by hobbyists, so the movement timing and wear considerations discussed previously are effectively null and void as the mechanism effectively only has one axis.

Out of interest, how long does it take to project a slice? Is the time per slice dominated by the curing time or the projection? What is the vertical resolution achieved?

 

Hi Gordon, projection times are about 2 seconds for a slice depending on resin, though there is also an x-y axis movement of the vat every projection which adds a few more seconds.   There is a coating of a silicone material 'PDMS' which inhibits the resin from curing on the projection window in the base of the vat.  This material needs to 'breathe' between each projection in order to re-oxygenate and this is achieved by using a wiper in the vat and the x-y movement.   Other printers are being developed with alternative materials to PDMS, that last much longer and are easier to replace.

[rue_d_etropal]

I think this discussion shows that demonstrating an actual 3D printer at an exhibition is a no no, except for some basic models. That is probably enough to get over the message, but showing off various finished products is as important, and explaining what can be done.

I have found that many people have no concept of even the basics, and one thing that is common to 3D printers at the moment is the layering, however it is actually achieved. It is a simple concept to get over to people, just something many had no concept of.

Believe me, I have had some very blank looks from people(some otherwise very bright) when I mention 3D printing. We take many technical things for granted these days, and 3D printing will be up there in a very short time.

One big difference 3D printing does have, is that it appears to have that wow factor, and does attract interest. That interest could be turned into an interest in model railways. Although there are some older people using the technology(like me), it is a technology that is being snapped up my young creative individuals. It is far far more than a tool to make models for us, and I am not sure if the business potentials have been properly promoted. 

[raymw]

Watching 3d printing is marginally more exciting than watching paint dry. Plenty of videos on the web, mostly speeded up by a factor of 60 or so. The business potential is being exploited, where it is needed. Something, if you are interested in the wider view, here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89567-gartners-2014-hype-cycle/ As time is money, in many cases other production methods are better, but being selective in what is made can be useful/profitable.
 
If model railways were fashionable, then maybe it would be worthwhile http://www.ted.com/talks/danit_peleg_forget_shopping_soon_you_ll_download_your_new_clothes but can't see it happening, myself