Any details on small steam cranes on B.R. ?

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

I have attached a (very poor I am afraid photograph) of a small rail mounted and I believe steam crane which was used at Thornton shed 62A. I photographed it around 1964. I believe that it was used to clear out the ashpits. I have plenty of details on every locomotive that was allocated there but have nothing else on this. Are there any publications which give details of these little machines?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[hmrspaul]

I hope someone proves me wrong, but until the 1980s all of the small cranes appear to have been very neglected by photographers, measurers and authors. I can't help, I never felt the need to venture into a steam engine shed.

 

The one preserved at the SRPS may be suitable? 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmscrane/e24a2b823

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmscrane/e350093f8

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmscrane/e30b99710

 

Paul

[96701]

When I joined the plant department in York HQ in '78 the last of the Civil Engineer's steam cranes were on their way out. I recall standing on the footplate of a 10 ton steam crane in Leeman Road yard, but that was the only time on a steam crane. The converted 10.16 tonne Taylor Hubbard diesel mechanicals took a lot of the steam cranes out, then came the Plasser and Cowans 12t diesel hydraulics, and I never saw another Civil Engineer's steam crane on the Eastern Region.

 

I do happen to have a general arrangement blueprint of a Grafton 10 ton steam crane.

[Rivercider]

 

I do happen to have a general arrangement blueprint of a Grafton 10 ton steam crane.

 

Exmouth Junction had a Grafton 2-ton steam crane for ash disposal, DS 329.

There is a decent black and white photo of it in Men, Machines & Maintenance at Exmouth Junction by Robert E Trevelyan.

It looks a similar size and general shape to the one at Thornton pictured above though the chassis is shorter and without drawgear

 

cheers

[Nearholmer]

I too joined BR during the 70s, but a bit earlier than 96701, and one of the depots that I spent time at during training was "Waterloo Outdoor Machinery", which looked after a very varied collection of bits of mechanical and electrical engineering on the SW Division. We had the small steam cranes at Woking PAD in the collection, and had to do boiler washouts, rope-greasing, tests on the SWL limit systems etc.

 

Rope-greasing involved running the rope out, by securing the hook at one end of a siding, then driving away very slowly, while "paying out", then the use of Dutch brushes and a drum of horrible sticky stuff. Anything in the firebox was b difficult, because it involved slewing to a right angle, to get the firebox over fresh air, then building a platform of bits of old sleepers to stand on, lifting the b heavy fire bars out from above your head etc. favourite trick, by which I was, of course, caught, was to dismantle the platform from under the feet of the person putting the fire bars back, leaving them suspended in mid air by one arm and their chin, head inside the firebox.

 

The work was utterly filthy, and there were no washing facilities ("HQ" was an old BD container), so we used to tramp along to the SR Retirement Home, where the guys knew the staff, because they looked after tea boilers, ovens etc, as well as steam cranes, and we would get given a really good late lunch, and were allowed use of the staff showers. I hated the retirement home, however, because it had an old-fashioned clock with a very loud "tick......tock.......tick.......", which numbered-off the remaining seconds for the frail oldsters who used to sit silently in the lounge - it really was like GWR.

 

Anyway, none of that will help you build a model, especially since I have absolutely no idea who built the cranes, but it might add "colour".

 

Kevin

 

PS: The Industrial Railway Society has a "cranes" sub-chapter, and the members of that will know the inside leg measurements of every one of these things.

[jonhall]

I think you could really break railway cranes down to (more or less) 4 types.

 

1) The smallest that probably never left their loco shed, and were used for emptying ash pits or perhaps coaling locos - I think that's what's seen in the OP.

 

2) Next up were a group of mostly hand cranes of 1-10T capacity in commercial use, that would have been the mobile equivalent of the yard crane, to unload wagons in goods yards.

 

3) CE department cranes either steam of diesel of 5-15T capacity, used for everything from track laying to signal post placement.

 

4) the big steam, later diesel 'breakdown, crane of 30-75T, which were probably more often used for replacing bridges, or where the smaller CCE cranes couldn't reach.

 

In ALL cases despite my classifications above , the railway would have used whichever crane was most suitable/easily available to do the job. The other thing to remember was that as everything on the railway got bigger and heavier, what was originally considered a large crane when new, over its lifetime probably became 'smaller' vs. the typical loads on the railway.

[96701]

Hi,

 

I have attached a (very poor I am afraid photograph) of a small rail mounted and I believe steam crane which was used at Thornton shed 62A. I photographed it around 1964. I believe that it was used to clear out the ashpits. I have plenty of details on every locomotive that was allocated there but have nothing else on this. Are there any publications which give details of these little machines?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

One thing I can't work out is whether the crane in the OP's photo is self propelled or not. I would have thought not until Rivercider mentioned one in post #4 at Exmouth without drawgear, so the one at Exmouth must have been self propelled, so maybe the OP's is as well. Always conundrums.........

[AberdeenBill]

Wasn't there a small crane at Bournemouth MPD used for coaling?

 

Bill

[Dava]

The only book I know of is 'Railway steam cranes' by Brownlie (1973) which will set you back $25-35 on Abe and I dont know how well it covers these smaller cranes

 

BUT many of them were 'Leeds' type cranes so this useful website covers the family of Leeds crane builders

http://www.leedsengine.info/leeds/histjb.asp some excellent links from this site

 

Dava

[EddieB]

Brownlie is the standard reference on a neglected subject.  It is broad in scope and fairly comprehensive - certainly recommended.

 

Table V in the Appendix of Brownlie lists the steam breakdown cranes allocated to the Scottish Region of British Railways - but these were larger machines than the one in the original photo.  The same applies in the body of the text, where movements of the various breakdown cranes allocated to Thornton for North British times onward are discussed - I think the crane illustrated was too small to warrant a mention.

 

PM to follow.

[Dava]

Similar cranes were used in docks and harbours. Colour film of Mallaig shows several used for fish traffic which would have been of LNER origin. Others were used at Falmouth docks and Seaham in more recent years.

 

Dava

[Ceptic]

Wasn't there a small crane at Bournemouth MPD used for coaling?

 

Bill

 Yes. That's right Bill. Rail wheel mounted of 1.5 ton SWL capacity. It was electrically powered, though.

[sandwich station]

I believe there is a similar steam crane at Chatham Dockyard, or at least there used to be, bearing in mind I haven't lived in the UK for quite a number of years.

[Rivercider]

Here is one at Brighton Shed in 1961, it looks similar, but not identical to the photo of DS 329 at Exmouth Junction

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/6197423810/in/photolist-arDqbE-pEEvrz-ow11jL-konxgX-kwj29j-jDQnB8-9Y3Hg8-jymnKk-fWoXWV-fWp7Rs-fWpaQ5-4GCeer-5Sonpg-8RJVov-AucqD9-uQ93Vh-uSsCCZ-6HV6BS-dBf8Pd-AprDV5-jvToda-zQ8BRU-8RJWnp-k7hLbk-q6KBZT-jXckGe-kLqkRo-5Z8gMi-kqSZUe-5Z8gMr-jVA1u1-8RN5Ew-8RN3JU-8RN3iA-6PByYU-9W6Zcc-xHpiHi-8RraCP-jqKuX9-s7VzFf-zPeP67-jrdVs9-jufjut-bitQ5B-kdYZtg-kmEVta-7Ha77h-8RN6yQ-6jTt9o-kgnDWa

 

cheers

[hmrspaul]

Have you tried the Vintage carriage trust database? Quite a lot of ways for searching for cranes, this is the list for 4 wheel steam cranes

 

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/wresults.asp

20578 Steam Crane built 1937Item has photograph
PO 17895 Steam Crane built 1944Item has photograph
PO 312 Industrial Crane built 1908Item has photograph
NER 91554 Steam Crane built 1913Item has photograph
PO 796 Industrial Crane built 1917Item has photograph
PO w/n 2446 Steam Crane built 1937Item has photograph
LNER DR 80000 CCE Light Duty Crane built 1939Item has photograph
LMSR DR 80001 Light Duty Crane built 1927Item has photograph
PO unknown Steam Crane built 1896Item has photograph
PO unknown Steam Crane built 1940Item has photograph
PO 12 Steam Crane built 1919Item has photograph
LNWR RS 1020 Steam Crane built 1908Item has photograph
PO 20055 Steam Crane Item has photograph
PO 23059 Steam Crane built 1954Item has photograph
PO w/n 2953 Self-Propelled Crane built 1956Item has photograph
PO unknown Steam Crane built 1880Item has photograph
PO A 9503/25 Steam Crane built 1918Item has photograph
PO 12394 Steam Crane Item has photograph
PO C 621 Steam Crane built 1935Item has photograph
PO Steam Crane built 1899Item has photograph
PO 5011 Steam Crane built 1944Item has photograph
PO w/n 2733 Steam Crane built 1949Item has photograph
PO w/n 10202 Industrial Crane built 1954Item has photograph
PO w/n 2485 Steam Crane built 1938Item has photograph
PO 34583 Steam Crane Item has photograph
MR DS 199 Steam Crane built 1917Item has photograph
GWR RS 38 Steam Crane built 1947Item has photograph
PO unknown Steam Crane built 1954Item has photograph
PO unknown Breakdown Crane Item has photograph
BR ADRS 95000 Light Duty Crane built 1955Item has photograph

[stadman]

Toton had one still present in the 1980's

[Nearholmer]

Potentially useful recommendation from one of the gurus at the IRS forum:

 

"Regarding BR PW cranes, also of relevance are the series of "Track Machines" (later "On-Track Plant on British Railways" ) publications by Roger Butcher (Platform 5 and SCT Publishing) in the 1970s-1990s. These included details of the fleet numbers, types, works numbers and allocations of both the small and large steam cranes that the CCE and CMEE possessed.

Keith Gunner"

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

Many thanks to all who have replied. It seems that this is a fairly neglected area of railway history but the use of small cranes around locomotive depots was quite widespread. I have spoken to a former fireman at Thornton who can remember the crane pottering about but can offer no real details other than that it was usually at the ashpits and had (to him at the time)a very old driver.

These were obviously things that few people thought to photograph. Looking back why do I have so many photographs of locomotives and so few of other things that make up the railway scene?

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[jonhall]

This example is (or was) preserved alongside Shakerston station on the Battlefield line, IIRC  it was from one of the Southern sheds, either Ramsgate or Bournemouth (I suspect the former).

 

Jon

[Froxfield2012]

 Yes. That's right Bill. Rail wheel mounted of 1.5 ton SWL capacity. It was electrically powered, though.

Here is a picture of the crane in use for coaling at Bournemouth in 1953.  Was it really electrically powered?  It looks to have a chimney.  The view was taken from some way away (the signal box steps?) across the main lines.

 

[jonhall]

I believe there is a similar steam crane at Chatham Dockyard, or at least there used to be, bearing in mind I haven't lived in the UK for quite a number of years.

There were several and although they appeared quite beefy by comparison with these ones, they were still only 5T maximum.

 

Lots of dockyards/steelworks/shipbuilders/industry's would have had a small crane for lifting parts about - the sort of job that is now done by HIAB lorry or 360 excavator.

 

Jon

[tamperman36]

I vaguely remember seeing the steam crane at Toton during the 80s, if I remember correctly it was painted in railfrieght colours.

 

There was a Salvage squad program made by channel 4 (I believe) now being shown on one of the freeview channels, in which the squad help to restore a former private industrial steam crane of around 5 ton size. The crane I believe is at Iron bridge industrial museum.

[Ceptic]

Here is a picture of the crane in use for coaling at Bournemouth in 1953.  Was it really electrically powered?  It looks to have a chimney.  The view was taken from some way away (the signal box steps?) across the main lines.

 

Bournemouth MPD general view_rmweb.jpg

 Hi Froxfield2012,

 

Great picture, many thanks.

 

Yes, the coaling crane shown operating, in the photo, is a steam powered replacement*, brought in from elsewhere. (?)

The MPD's normal coaling crane, dating from 1923, (electrically powered from the outset, to placate the depot's nearby neighbours / residents.

Remember the large notices on the back fence panels ? "QUIET PLEASE, RESIDENTIAL AREA").

This became BR.'s No.DS 60 and can be seen, under repair. in the photo's upper RH corner. The cabin, of which, is still on it's under-cart, but minus it's jib and winding gear.

 

As far as I'm aware, this type of electric crane had few copies, at least on SR, BR(S). Dorchester had similar No. DS 61, until closure. Horsham also had one (DS No. u/known).

 

*Replacements were called in, from time to time, when the electric coaler gave up the ghost.

I've, on film, pictures of a locally hired clam grab, caterpillar tracked (Non rail-mounted) from Selwood Plant Hire.

 

Cheers.

 

[jamie92208]

They were probably either Smiths or Booths steam cranes, mainly built at Rodley in Leeds.  If you are interested I have photo of one that currently resides above the 1000' contour in the Yorkshire Dales.  It's lost its cab but I have photos of it's innards.  if that could be of help I can try and scan and post the images.

 

Jamie

[Froxfield2012]

 Hi Froxfield2012,

 

Great picture, many thanks.

 

Yes, the coaling crane shown operating, in the photo, is a steam powered replacement*, brought in from elsewhere. (?)

The MPD's normal coaling crane, dating from 1923, (electrically powered from the outset, to placate the depot's nearby neighbours / residents.

Remember the large notices on the back fence panels ? "QUIET PLEASE, RESIDENTIAL AREA").

This became BR.'s No.DS 60 and can be seen, under repair. in the photo's upper RH corner. The cabin, of which, is still on it's under-cart, but minus it's jib and winding gear.

 

As far as I'm aware, this type of electric crane had few copies, at least on SR, BR(S). Dorchester had similar No. DS 61, until closure. Horsham also had one (DS No. u/known).

 

*Replacements were called in, from time to time, when the electric coaler gave up the ghost.

I've, on film, pictures of a locally hired clam grab, caterpillar tracked (Non rail-mounted) from Selwood Plant Hire.

 

Cheers.

That's interesting, because I had wondered what the "cabin on wheels" in the background of several photos actually was!  This steam crane certainly ran on rails as can be seen in other shots.