3F Jinty's

[GWR8700]

What sort of work did 3F Jinty's do?  Was it mainly shunting or did they pull small goods and passenger trains too?  I've been searching on the internet and I can't find much so far unfortunately.  I'm planning a layout based on the old Buxton-Derby line in the peaks so I'm wondering if I'll need many Jinty's.  There were some at Rowsley shed but that's the limit of my knowledge.

Any information will be greatly appreciated!

[Leander]

The Jinties generally shunted the yards at Rowsley. AFAIA the pick-up goods both north and south of that place used 3F and 4F 0-6-0 tender locos in the main.

[LMS2968]

They did indeed work trains along the line usual to a loco of that size: local passenger and trips, banking, ecs. etc. A few were fitted with screw reversers and some, possibly from the earlier batches only, with condensing apparatus.

[GWR8700]

They did indeed work trains along the line usual to a loco of that size: local passenger and trips, banking, ecs. etc. A few were fitted with screw reversers and some, possibly from the earlier batches only, with condensing apparatus.

Thanks, what exactly are screw reversers and condensing apparatus?  Did these allow them to work passenger trains?

Yeah, there's a lot of banking on that line so I'll use them for that.

Also, do you know if Patriots ran on this line at all?  I've heard them mentioned on a site but I've not seen any photos.

[phil-b259]

Thanks, what exactly are screw reversers and condensing apparatus?  Did these allow them to work passenger trains?

 

A reverser is a steam locos equivalent of a cars gear stick (and without a reverser no loco is going to be much use for anything) - the screw variety was adjusted by rotating a wheel and thus winding a shaft in / out and lining a pointer up with the various 'gear' options. Other alternatives included a lever reverser (like a big signal lever sticking up from the floor of the cab which would be set to a number of different positions to select different 'gears') or a steam reverser (where movement of the reversing gear was done by a steam driven piston, thus making the cab control much smaller and lighter).

 

Condensing apparatus is a set of pipework that takes the waste steam from the cylinders back into the water tanks where it condenses into water again. Popularly used on mainly tunnelled lines like the Metropolitan line between Paddington and Moorgate plus the Mersey railway under the river to Liverpool, it was supposed to make the environment for passengers a bit better. While obviously such considerations would not apply in rural Derbyshire locos could well have retained their apparatus as a legacy of where they were first allocated to when built.

Edited December 20, 2015 by phil-b259

[DCB]

I am no expert on the Midland but Rowsley was where rampant Midlandism strangled the life out of what should still be a main line.

 

To elaborate to the Midland as far as freight was concerned there was a Derby Rowsley line and a Rowsley Peak forest line. From Derby mighty goods trains toiled north until at Rowsley they were slimmed down to a size which a pair of 4F 0-6-0s, one in front one behind could cope with up the slight slope to Peak Forest.  Even if a 7F 8F or 9F was the train engine the load still had to be within a 4Fs capability to ensure the banker could hold the train if a coupling broke.

So the Rowsley sidings were busy with Jintys remarshalling north bound freights into 4F sized chunks, while 4Fs acted as bankers.  Jintys would have to have banked in pairs due  to a lack of brake power, a 3F Tender loco may have been able to substitute.  

 

So the likelihood is Rowsley Jinties would have done little else but shunt the marshalling yards.  The Midland had vast quantities antiquated large wheeled tender locos for light passenger work, some of them brad new, some from the 1880s so I doubt they would have needed a Jinty for such work.

[GWR8700]

I am no expert on the Midland but Rowsley was where rampant Midlandism strangled the life out of what should still be a main line.

 

To elaborate to the Midland as far as freight was concerned there was a Derby Rowsley line and a Rowsley Peak forest line. From Derby mighty goods trains toiled north until at Rowsley they were slimmed down to a size which a pair of 4F 0-6-0s, one in front one behind could cope with up the slight slope to Peak Forest.  Even if a 7F 8F or 9F was the train engine the load still had to be within a 4Fs capability to ensure the banker could hold the train if a coupling broke.

So the Rowsley sidings were busy with Jintys remarshalling north bound freights into 4F sized chunks, while 4Fs acted as bankers.  Jintys would have to have banked in pairs due  to a lack of brake power, a 3F Tender loco may have been able to substitute.  

 

So the likelihood is Rowsley Jinties would have done little else but shunt the marshalling yards.  The Midland had vast quantities antiquated large wheeled tender locos for light passenger work, some of them brad new, some from the 1880s so I doubt they would have needed a Jinty for such work.

Thank you, that's very interesting.  I didn't realise that the line was worked in that way, it certainly makes light of why the line shut early.  Certainly explains why there aren't any photos of 8fs climbing up the line.

[edward66]

There were 2 lots of Jinties, the ex Midland ones and the later Fowler variants. Some of the Midland ones had condensing gear and were allocated to the London area, shed 14A etc. One of those [47201] was exiled to Lancaster about 1951 and after a while its condensing gear was removed.

Some were engaged on light passenger duties, I think a few even had push and pull fittings [could be wrong about that] but they were normally engaged in shunting or short trip workings. Good little engines, I think there were well over 500 of them but I haven't got my Ian Allan ABC handy to check the actual number. The majority were vacuum brake fitted but some just had 3 link couplings and no vac. brakes set up, one of which was 47639, an early withdrawal from Lancaster Green Ayre depot.

 

One or two went to Ireland and were regauged to 5'3" and several saw military service during WWII [in France I believe].

 

Edward

[roythebus]

Some of the condensing locos were allocated to Cricklewood to work to West Kensington and Kensington High Street coal depots via the North London line, South Acton, round the triangle to Turnham Green then onto the District Line.

[BR60103]

Reversers: the lever reverser was more popular in shunting work where a change of direction only required one (large) movement, as he said, like a signal box. The screw reverse required cranking a wheel for ages to move from full forward to full reverse. I think the screw reverse had mechanical advantages at higher pressures and more intermediate positions; the lever reverse had notches.

In America, the lever reverse was called the Johnson Bar and an Armstrong reverse.

[LMS2968]

I think a few even had push and pull fittings [could be wrong about that]

I thought that too but, like you, wasn't too sure so didn't mention it.

 

I meant to say in my earlier reply that I was talking about the class generally and not at Rowsley in particular, as the workings in that area are not my particular interest (L&YR!).

 

The two (main) types of reverser each had their particular advantages over the other. The lever type (pole to enginemen) was much easier to use when shunting as it was just full forward or full back in one quick movement. It's problem lay in running on the line, when it would be necessary to 'notch up', to reduce the piston stroke during which steam was admitted to the cylinder, by shortening the cut-off.  This was done by moving the lever nearer to the mid-gear position, but with unbalanced slide valves, which these engines had, the steam pressure above the valve caused a lot of friction to the port faces. The effect once the catch locking the lever in position was released was for the valves to stop and the movement derived from the valve gear to be transferred to the lever, which would then throw the driver from one end of the cab to the other. It was necessary to fully close the regulator and allow time for the the admitted steam to clear before releasing the catch to overcome this.

 

The screw reverser didn't suffer this problem and the cut-off could be altered with the regulator fully open; it also allowed an almost infinite variation of cut-off settings, unlike the rather crude notches of the lever. I heard that the Jinties were fitted with screw reversers for banking up Camden. It was necessary to shorten the cut-off part way up and with a lever and the necessary closing of the regulator, the Jinty would drop back from the train and then have to recover the distance. That was something I read a long time ago and, while it makes sense, I can't say it's correct.

[bike2steam]

I thought the original question concerned those that operated in the Rowsley, or Buxton to Derby line, area, but if we're talking about all 3F 0-6-0T's, don't forget the small batch of P&P members of the class that worked the southern end of the Central Wales Line.  For your layout you can always re-allocate one.

[br2975]

Approximately half a dozen were fitted with 'push and pull' gear (auto fitted being a Western phrase !!!) for working between Swansea St. Thomas and Brynamman.

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They were initially allocated to the former Midland Railway Swansea, Upper Bank shed moving to the former LNWR shed at Swansea, Paxton Street when the passenger service ended, and panniers were drafted in to Upper bank (IIRC - 67xx,. 67xx and more 67xx, with a 67xx thrown in for variety). 

.

From Paxton St. the 'push pull' fitted locos were scattered across the former LMS system.

.

Drawings of the 'push pull' gear were published in a Railway Modeller article by members of the LMS Society in the mid 1960s.

.

The same authors published an article in the RM, on the LMS 'push pull' driving vehicles (with drawings) about the same time.

 

Another article on the Jinties ( quite detailed )  appeared in the old MRN in the late 60s early 70s.

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An expanded version of that article appeared years later in MORILL (IIIRC).

.

Brian R

Edited December 21, 2015 by br2975

[Leander]

Thank you, that's very interesting.  I didn't realise that the line was worked in that way, it certainly makes light of why the line shut early.  Certainly explains why there aren't any photos of 8fs climbing up the line.

There are plenty of published photos of 8Fs on freights over the Peak Line. Try Bill Hudson's 'Through Limestone Hills' and various volumes in the Foxline series of books which give good coverage of the line for plenty of photographic evidence. There was even a down loaded iron ore working which employed one 8F as the train engine, with another as the banker. Ex-LNWR 0-8-0s were also fairly commonplace between Buxton and Rowsley, and 9Fs weren't unknown either in later days. In earlier times LMS 7F 0-8-0s worked into Rowsley Sidings from Gowhole and Buxton too. Gowhole fulfilled a similar purpose to Rowsley at the northern end of the Peak Line, re-mashalling down traffic for various destinations in the north west and, in the up direction, sorting out traffic to be routed over either the Hope Valley or Peak Lines.

 

I think two highly relevant points were made earlier in the thread, namely, the limited water capacity of the 3F 0-6-0Ts (Jinties) which precluded their use on the pick-up goods workings, and the fact that many (but not all) freights were re-marshalled at Rowsley in both directions. There were through fitted freights e.g. Ancoats (Manchester) to Somers Town London and Washwood Heath (Birmingham) to Huskisson (Liverpool), still routed over Midland lines more than 30 years after the grouping, but this was the exception rather the rule.

 

The yards at Rowsley closed when through freight traffic was re-routed away from the Peak Line as a precursor to complete closure of the line.

[Leander]

Also, do you know if Patriots ran on this line at all?  I've heard them mentioned on a site but I've not seen any photos.

Unrebuilt Patriot no. 45509 'Derbyshire Yeomanry' worked over the line on occasions when it was allocated to 17A Derby in the 1950s whilst rebuild no. 45532 ''lllustrious' did when allocated to 16A Nottingham (1959-61) and then to 17A in 1962.

[Pannier Tank]

Approximately half a dozen were fitted with 'push and pull' gear (auto fitted being a Western phrase !!!) for working between Swansea St. Thomas and Brynamman.

47477, 47478, 47479, 47480, 47481, 47655, 47681 were the numbers.

[Poor Old Bruce]

The LMS version of the 3F 0-6-0T also worked passenger trains on the ECML on Broad Street to Potters Bar services. I would imagine screw reversers were preferred for such workings.

 

30 of the 60 Johnson locos were condenser fitted to work through the London tunnels. All those locos were built with round-top fireboxes but later rebuilt with Belpaire boilers although retaining their short smokeboxes.

 

The first 50 Fowler locos did not have the 'keyhole' in the side tank to access the sandbox, the rest did.

 

Back to Rowsley, in the 50s and 60s goods trains were often piloted as well as banked from Rowsley to Peak Forest with a 4F fore and aft. I think the banking engine would also be coupled to the train due to the variations in gradient and the distance involved. The train would stop at Peak Forest to detach the assisting engines and the banker could then be used to assist the train to restart over the summit.

[GWR8700]

There are plenty of published photos of 8Fs on freights over the Peak Line. Try Bill Hudson's 'Through Limestone Hills' and various volumes in the Foxline series of books which give good coverage of the line for plenty of photographic evidence. There was even a down loaded iron ore working which employed one 8F as the train engine, with another as the banker. Ex-LNWR 0-8-0s were also fairly commonplace between Buxton and Rowsley, and 9Fs weren't unknown either in later days. In earlier times LMS 7F 0-8-0s worked into Rowsley Sidings from Gowhole and Buxton too. Gowhole fulfilled a similar purpose to Rowsley at the northern end of the Peak Line, re-mashalling down traffic for various destinations in the north west and, in the up direction, sorting out traffic to be routed over either the Hope Valley or Peak Lines.

 

I think two highly relevant points were made earlier in the thread, namely, the limited water capacity of the 3F 0-6-0Ts (Jinties) which precluded their use on the pick-up goods workings, and the fact that many (but not all) freights were re-marshalled at Rowsley in both directions. There were through fitted freights e.g. Ancoats (Manchester) to Somers Town London and Washwood Heath (Birmingham) to Huskisson (Liverpool), still routed over Midland lines more than 30 years after the grouping, but this was the exception rather the rule.

 

The yards at Rowsley closed when through freight traffic was re-routed away from the Peak Line as a precursor to complete closure of the line.

Thanks, so for my layout I can run 8Fs up towards Buxton so long as they are within the capability of a 4F banking on the rear?  I'll have a look out for those books, especially the Limestone Hills book which I've heard good things about.

This will sound a bit dumb but I am quite new to the hobby.  What is a 'fitted freight'?

Also, why was traffic re-marshalled in both directions and not just on the up?

 

Thank you to everyone else for your contributions to.

[Marshall5]

A fitted freight is one which is fitted with continuous brakes, vacuum in the days you are modelling, air nowadays.  Not all vehicles in a fitted freight needed to be vacuum braked, some might be 'through piped' which meant that the driver could still apply the brakes throughout the train and run at up to 60?mph.  Some freights just had a 'fitted head' where just the first few (5?) wagons were piped up to the loco to provide extra braking and could run at 40mph IIRC.  Most mineral trains had hand brakes only and relied on the loco's brakes and guard's brakes so had a longer stopping distance and could only run at low speeds. Before descending a steep incline an unfitted train would be stopped and the guard would walk along the train 'pinning down' the wagon handbrakes reversing the process at the bottom. Hope this helps.

Ray.

[Leander]

 What is a 'fitted freight'?

Also, why was traffic re-marshalled in both directions and not just on the up?

A 'fitted freight' was one in which either the whole train, or a part of it, was composed of wagons fitted with vacuum brakes or were through piped, (i.e. the wagon didn't have vacuum brakes but had a vacuum pipe to connect to the wagons either side of it) connected to the locomotive. A train fitted with vacuum brakes, either in whole or in part, gave the train engine greater braking power and therefore more control over the train increasing its ability to stop on falling gradients. Furthermore, if a coupling broke and the vacuum pipe was disconnected, the brakes would come 'on' thereby preventing a train running away. The guard, in his van, had control of a brake and could slow or stop the rear portion of such a breakaway in such an eventuality.

 

If you look at a photograph of a freight train in the steam era, fitted and through piped wagons were painted bauxite (brown in appearance) whilst unfitted stock was painted grey, or in the case of wooden wagons, were unpainted with grey painted metalwork. Underframes were black in both cases.

 

The Peak line was not fitted with catch points to derail a train which had suffered a broken coupling and was running away, at least not until the years immediately preceding its closure. This was one reason given for the extensive use that was made of bankers. In other words, it wasn't just to provide extra power on the gradients, it was to hold the train in the case of such an emergency situation.

 

To turn to your second question. Gowhole received traffic from the south over the Peak line, and from the east (Sheffield and Chesterfield) over the Hope Valley line. It was destined for a variety of destinations in the north west of England, these being goods yards and docks and depots in the Liverpool and Manchester areas. Remember that each of the pre-grouping companies which competed with each other pre-1923 built their own passenger stations and goods facilities. Most of these were still in use until the early 1960s and the rationalisation that followed the publication of the Beeching Report in 1963. Therefore trains on arriving at Gowhole were re-marshalled into trains to 'trip' the wagons on the next stage of their journey. The opposite process took place in the 'up' direction with traffic being received and made up into trains to proceed either east or west.

 

There's a short but well-illustrated article in the current (December 2015) issue of 'British Railways Illustrated' which is worth looking up.

 

I hope this helps, although I'm not a railway professional and I'm sure those who are among these ranks might take issue with my use of some of the more technical aspects of fitted freights that I've attempted to explain above.

[steve4rosegrove]

Some Jinties (modeller's name) or Jockos (railwayman's term) were fitted with steam heating gear for passenger working.  The best source for detailed information on this class is Wild Swan Publication's LMS Locomotive Profiles No 14 - The Standard Class 3 Freight Tank Engines.  There are very many photos. and drawings plus details of variations and change points.  No connection except as satisfied customer.

Steve

[LMS2968]

Some Jinties (modeller's name) or Jockos (railwayman's term)

It depended on where the railwayman was based, and 'Jinties' was used by them in some areas, but generally not on the Midland. Similarly 'Jocko' was a general term for a shunter rather than the 3Fs in particular, but in some areas it would be a Jinty anyway, hence the application. 'Dobbo' and 'Humpy' were others. The L&YR  0-4-0STs are often what are meant when people refer to a 'Pug', but there were others, such as the Caledonian locos of the same wheel arrangement.

 

This is shifting the topic quite a bit, but nicknames for various classes, used by railwaymen and spotters (they weren't always the same) could be diverse and very, very interesting, especially when the same name was applied to different classes by the two groups of people!

[PenrithBeacon]

There is a theory that the term 'Jinty' originated by a misunderstanding by Hornby. It goes that the Johnston 0-4-0T had a 'J1' boiler (which is true) and somebody at Derby works called this a 'Jinty'. Hornby misunderstood and the rest is history.

 

In more recent times the concept of LMS Period 1 to 3 coaches invented by Essery and Jenkinson is now in common use, although the term actually has no historical provenance.

 

Regards

[hmrspaul]

There is a theory that the term 'Jinty' originated by a misunderstanding by Hornby. It goes that the Johnston 0-4-0T had a 'J1' boiler (which is true) and somebody at Derby works called this a 'Jinty'. Hornby misunderstood and the rest is history.

 

In more recent times the concept of LMS Period 1 to 3 coaches invented by Essery and Jenkinson is now in common use, although the term actually has no historical provenance.

 

Regards

Presumably you meant Tri-ang. Hornby didn't do a Jocko.

 

Paul

[PenrithBeacon]

Presumably you meant Tri-ang. Hornby didn't do a Jocko.

 

Paul

Thanks , Paul.

 

Regards