Christleton Junction - 1986 - Gateway to North Wales

[cheesysmith]

9 hours ago, 61656 said:

Is 86 too early for the 305s? Not that I can tell a 304 from a 305 (yet). 
 

I was also thinking of a 310. 

 

Will have to check dates, but when the 319 Thameslink came in, it cascaded the 317 to the Euston services, which cascaded the 310 to NSE Anglia services. A few 310 were kept by Centro in 3 car sets and did work north to Crewe etc. The 305 didn't get north till later. Mostly it would be 304 and the odd unrefurbished 303 that had been sent down for when the remains of the old woodhead had been converted to AC for the hadfield services.

 

How to tell a 304 from the other EMUs? They had two brake compartments. One in the motor coach and one in one of the driving coaches. As for a model, you can see of southern pride still have any of them or bash them out of replica suburban coaches. The DC kits version is out of production and goes for silly monies on evilbay.

Edited April 3, 2021 by cheesysmith
Stupid tablet spell checker

[mallaig1983]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Ingrish pleeze...

The act of taking one’s girlfriend for a jolly on a first generation multiple unit.

[cheesysmith]

Bog carting. Must admit when the model event is on at the GCR we always had to have a ride on the 101 DMU. always good for a nap, the vibrations plus the rocking puts me to sleep.

[61656]

2 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

 

Will have to check dates, but when the 319 Thameslink came in, it cascaded the 317 to the Euston services, which cascaded the 310 to NSE Anglia services. A few 310 were kept by Centro in 3 car sets and did work north to Crewe etc. The 305 didn't get north till later. Mostly it would be 304 and the odd unrefurbished 303 that had been sent down for when the remains of the old woodhead had been converted to AC for the hadfield services.

 

How to tell a 304 from the other EMUs? They had two brake compartments. One in the motor coach and one in one of the driving coaches. As for a model, you can see of southern pride still have any of them or bash them out of replica suburban coaches. The DC kits version is out of production and goes for silly monies on evilbay.

I hadn’t considered a 303,  but also a long term possibility. 
 

My regular operator (the Colonel) who hasn’t seen the railway in person since the summer (and we had so much beer he saw several versions) is very much a Great Western backwater man. By which I mean the bit west of Paddington. However, he is muting plans to get his 3D printing man on the case with some 304 front ends. Neither of us are really that taken by the current options, but if we can get some accurate drawings then modifying some mk1s becomes a real possibility. 

[61656]

38 minutes ago, mallaig1983 said:

The act of taking one’s girlfriend for a jolly on a first generation multiple unit.

That would seem to be mutually exclusive events. Either you have a girlfriend or you’re on a 101. 
 

If you can do both at once they need your talents over at the Large Hadron Colander*. 

 

*every now and again you have to let the spool chucker have its way.  

[lincolnshiremodeller]

22 hours ago, cheesysmith said:

Then there was 6 sets of 115 at Liverpool

Can you expand on that. I thought 115 were all at Marylebone/Bletchley with some sets realised to Tyseley?

[61656]

11 hours ago, mallaig1983 said:

Window bashing/Droplight hanging was the order of the day. I travelled from Oxford to Bangor regularly. Now I did love my hoovers and loathed a duff but the North Wales coast was all duff. Well if you departed from Crewe anyway so for that mileage Duffs were king. Big Sulzer noise was music to the ears. What if anything was on shed at Landids junc? At least a 101 or 108. Usually a 25 or a 40 sometimes both. Never saw a 45’ there but maybe by then working timetables and diagrams had changed. Now the depot is a retail centre and I now watch films and munch maccy’s there. The cinema has photos of the steam shed on the foyer walls at least and fair play. 
My own layout is Mallaig off of Scotland set in 1983 and although I never went there at that time the atmosphere of BR bywaters is well remembered.

 

I was only 12 when the Peaks bowed out, but I remember being terrified of the peak army - goodness knows what the regular passengers made of them. They’re still a bit of a handful on a diesel even now, although the zimmer frames seem less threatening. 

The 45s only became North Wales regulars in 84(or 85?), when the Scarborough and Newcastle services were extended beyond Manchester to Holyhead, Bangor and Llandudno. I think it also put paid to 25s on services on the Coast, as well as 40s, so mixed blessings. 
 

I shall now further delay the Easter weekend DIY and go investigate your layout. I know almost nothing about that period and location, except for some cracking layouts back in the late 80s in the modeller and constructor. Every now and then you see a picture of a 26 that escaped south and I start building stories about one making it to Chester!

[61656]

11 minutes ago, lincolnshiremodeller said:

Can you expand on that. I thought 115 were all at Marylebone/Bletchley with some sets realised to Tyseley?

My 1986 platform 5 has 13 115 DMBS allocated to Allerton (AN) and 7 TCLs, one of which was still all over blue. By 1987 the DMBS were still at Allerton, but the centre cars had move to Tyseley. The blue one was still blue. 

[mallaig1983]

25 minutes ago, 61656 said:

I was only 12 when the Peaks bowed out, but I remember being terrified of the peak army - goodness knows what the regular passengers made of them. They’re still a bit of a handful on a diesel even now, although the zimmer frames seem less threatening. 

The 45s only became North Wales regulars in 84(or 85?), when the Scarborough and Newcastle services were extended beyond Manchester to Holyhead, Bangor and Llandudno. I think it also put paid to 25s on services on the Coast, as well as 40s, so mixed blessings. 
 

I shall now further delay the Easter weekend DIY and go investigate your layout. I know almost nothing about that period and location, except for some cracking layouts back in the late 80s in the modeller and constructor. Every now and then you see a picture of a 26 that escaped south and I start building stories about one making it to Chester!

If memory serves I think it was the 33s that ousted the 25s. I don’t remember seeing a 25 on anything other than Crewe to Bangor services although please don’t take that as gospel. I do remember the 40s vanishing and the 45s arriving with the trans Pennine services.

The 80s really were so much better than what we have now.

[61656]

16 minutes ago, mallaig1983 said:

If memory serves I think it was the 33s that ousted the 25s. I don’t remember seeing a 25 on anything other than Crewe to Bangor services although please don’t take that as gospel. I do remember the 40s vanishing and the 45s arriving with the trans Pennine services.

The 80s really were so much better than what we have now.

I have pictures of 25s on the Llandudno to Man Vic services in the mid eighties. I think they became the Llandudno to Scarboroughs in 85 and moved to type 4 power. 
 

As varied as the motive power seems to be, it works out that just about every other train is a 47. PCM put me on to a great source of loco-hauled information and I’m busy converting that into schedule for Christleton. It’s very interesting seeing the different diagrams from the time. 

[mallaig1983]

1 hour ago, 61656 said:

I have pictures of 25s on the Llandudno to Man Vic services in the mid eighties. I think they became the Llandudno to Scarboroughs in 85 and moved to type 4 power. 
 

As varied as the motive power seems to be, it works out that just about every other train is a 47. PCM put me on to a great source of loco-hauled information and I’m busy converting that into schedule for Christleton. It’s very interesting seeing the different diagrams from the time. 

Thanks for the info. At this time any observations were from the train as we would of been travelling rather than on a spotting mission. We would usually be on a direct train from Crewe and as I was younger I didn’t really know a great deal about services to and from Manchester. I’d of been 14 when the 45s and 33s came on the scene and old enough to take more of an interest in what was what. 
Every days a school day. Thanks.

[DIRTY DIESEL]

59 minutes ago, 61656 said:

I have pictures of 25s on the Llandudno to Man Vic services in the mid eighties. I think they became the Llandudno to Scarboroughs in 85 and moved to type 4 power. 
 

As varied as the motive power seems to be, it works out that just about every other train is a 47. PCM put me on to a great source of loco-hauled information and I’m busy converting that into schedule for Christleton. It’s very interesting seeing the different diagrams from the time. 

The diagram went Trans Pennine from summer timetable change in 1983, when I was box lad in Llandudno Junction SB I use to catch the morning  ‘Bangor ‘ to work. 
I remember it changing from MK1s to MK2s and Duffs with 16 wheels replacing the no heat 40s from the previous  summer of 82....

The 13xx Llandudno to Scarborough use to run parallel down the newly laid Up Passenger Loop as the Holyhead to Euston Boat train used to fly past. This wasn’t always the case if the ‘flyer’ was a bit down the pan & a 40 was on the Trans Pennine, an indication to the driver and more importantly the bashers that you’ve got the ‘back un’ was always appreciated!! .

 

The Peaks lasted till the Summer of 85 when the 150s started to take over the LHCS diagrams.

 

Stu 

[61656]

8 minutes ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

The diagram went Trans Pennine from summer timetable change in 1983, when I was box lad in Llandudno Junction SB I use to catch the morning  ‘Bangor ‘ to work. 
I remember it changing from MK1s to MK2s and Duffs with 16 wheels replacing the no heat 40s from the previous  summer of 82....

The 13xx Llandudno to Scarborough use to run parallel down the newly laid Up Passenger Loop as the Holyhead to Euston Boat train used to fly past. This wasn’t always the case if the ‘flyer’ was a bit down the pan & a 40 was on the Trans Pennine, an indication to the driver and more importantly the bashers that you’ve got the ‘back un’ was always appreciated!! .

 

The Peaks lasted till the Summer of 85 when the 150s started to take over the LHCS diagrams.

 

Stu 

83 would make sense, there are a number of pictures of peaks on PV mk2s from 83-86.

 

"Loco-Hauled travel 1986" has the following diagrams (its fairly complicated, but affectively each diagram runs each way):

 

2 x 33/0 (from Crewe)

6 x 45/1 (Trans-Pennine)

5 x 47/4 (from Euston / West Midlands)

1 x 47/4 (from Cardiff)

 

14 loco hauled diagrams in each direction, plus relief services (another 4 on a summer weekend?).

 

"Colour of North Wales Coast" records class 150/2s on the first day of trans-pennine sprinter operation as 16 March 87, with local services becoming 150s from May 86 (which is suspended in my world until Jan 87!)

 

[DIRTY DIESEL]

11 minutes ago, 61656 said:

 

"Colour of North Wales Coast" records class 150/2s on the first day of trans-pennine sprinter operation as 16 March 87, with local services becoming 150s from May 86 (which is suspended in my world until Jan 87!)

 

Sorry yes your right, I remember a six car set of 150/2s taking up one of the diagrams, which didn’t have yellow ends.

See link here (if it works) http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/sixteen.htm from Dave Sallery page. 
The 6 car set stayed together for the driver training then split into single units for the start of the timetable, which at the time was deemed progress!!

That said I’ve seen a ‘Nodding Donkey’ on the Holyhead to Hull service in future years, now I bet that was fun....

 

Stu

[61656]

7 minutes ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

Sorry yes your right, I remember a six car set of 150/2s taking up one of the diagrams, which didn’t have yellow ends.

See link here (if it works) http://www.penmorfa.com/Archive/sixteen.htm from Dave Sallery page. 
The 6 car set stayed together for the driver training then split into single units for the start of the timetable, which at the time was deemed progress!!

That said I’ve seen a ‘Nodding Donkey’ on the Holyhead to Hull service in future years, now I bet that was fun....

 

Stu

I remember being excited about trying the Sprinters out. Such a staggering disappointment. I can’t believe any passenger saw it as a positive. 
 

In about 87 we had a 142 on a previously loco-hauled Blackpool Leeds. There was a chap on there looking for the first class, so we pointed him in the direction of the compartment in the middle of the train!

[DIRTY DIESEL]

17 minutes ago, 61656 said:

I remember being excited about trying the Sprinters out. Such a staggering disappointment. I can’t believe any passenger saw it as a positive. 
 

In about 87 we had a 142 on a previously loco-hauled Blackpool Leeds. There was a chap on there looking for the first class, so we pointed him in the direction of the compartment in the middle of the train!

Ha yes, but they have longevity, I’ve often wondered as I shunt the morning Blaenau unit into platform 4 at the Junction if theses are the same units I pulled off for 34 years ago!!
Unfortunately unless it whistles & has 16 wheels I don’t take much notice of the numbers. 

 

[Mol_PMB]

15 minutes ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

Ha yes, but they have longevity, I’ve often wondered as I shunt the morning Blaenau unit into platform 4 at the Junction if theses are the same units I pulled off for 34 years ago!!
Unfortunately unless it whistles & has 16 wheels I don’t take much notice of the numbers. 

 

I think all the Welsh 150s now are 150/2s so they would have been the later batch.

A Royal Scot has 16 wheels and whistles. Does that count?

[61656]

25 minutes ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

Ha yes, but they have longevity, I’ve often wondered as I shunt the morning Blaenau unit into platform 4 at the Junction if theses are the same units I pulled off for 34 years ago!!
Unfortunately unless it whistles & has 16 wheels I don’t take much notice of the numbers. 

 

Our paths have almost certainly crossed professionally as I re-signalled the line to your East in 2018. I'd like to get my hands on your 'box one day, but it's nothing personal!

 

North Wales was probably the last place you could regularly see both types of 16 wheelers, with the 40's carrying on in 97 guise. I don't think they ran anywhere else that would regularly see 45s.

[61656]

14 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think all the Welsh 150s now are 150/2s so they would have been the later batch.

A Royal Scot has 16 wheels and whistles. Does that count?

The March 87 introduction on the Tran-Pennines was all 150/2s, as they had corridor connections on the ends. The 150/1s did the initial roll-out in 86 on local (ish) services. There were only two 150/0s with centre coaches, and I had the joy of them on the Stourbridge lines until unexpectedly loco hauled became an option!

[cheesysmith]

6 hours ago, 61656 said:

I hadn’t considered a 303,  but also a long term possibility. 
 

My regular operator (the Colonel) who hasn’t seen the railway in person since the summer (and we had so much beer he saw several versions) is very much a Great Western backwater man. By which I mean the bit west of Paddington. However, he is muting plans to get his 3D printing man on the case with some 304 front ends. Neither of us are really that taken by the current options, but if we can get some accurate drawings then modifying some mk1s becomes a real possibility. 

If you want drawing, look for the DEMU compendium. They had a full set of drawings in there. 

[lincolnshiremodeller]

9 hours ago, 61656 said:

My 1986 platform 5 has 13 115 DMBS allocated to Allerton (AN) and 7 TCLs, one of which was still all over blue. By 1987 the DMBS were still at Allerton, but the centre cars had move to Tyseley. The blue one was still blue. 

Thanks for that. Everyday is a school day as they say.

[DIRTY DIESEL]

5 hours ago, 61656 said:

Our paths have almost certainly crossed professionally as I re-signalled the line to your East in 2018. I'd like to get my hands on your 'box one day, but it's nothing personal!

 

 

No doubt, I was on duty the night the old boxes shut & the ROC came on line...

Any chance you could reinstate Rhyl’s old IB to stop trains being OB and standing in Rhyl platform when late running...

 

Five or six years should just about right if you want to come for the Junction...

[5BarVT]

6 hours ago, 61656 said:

Our paths have almost certainly crossed professionally as I re-signalled the line to your East in 2018.

Implementation, or scheme plan design?

I sat on the panel that reviewed the plans.

Paul.

[61656]

32 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Implementation, or scheme plan design?

I sat on the panel that reviewed the plans.

Paul.

Implementation. My only recollection of the plans was that the fringe to Junction turned out to be excessively complicated for red, yellow or green!

[61656]

1 hour ago, DIRTY DIESEL said:

No doubt, I was on duty the night the old boxes shut & the ROC came on line...

Any chance you could reinstate Rhyl’s old IB to stop trains being OB and standing in Rhyl platform when late running...

 

Five or six years should just about right if you want to come for the Junction...

From what I know that sounds about right. Certainly in CP7 I think.

 

An additional block section should actually be quite straightforward, at least in theory.