LT King's Cross Mystery Tunnel

[russ p]

 

 

Was York road curve built before hotel curve? Looking at the map it appears that hotel curve blocks the southern end of maiden lane curve as if the latter closed to build hotel curve.

The mystery tunnel doesn't seem to be on this map it should be in the bottom left of the map

Edited January 15, 2016 by russ p

[jamie92208]

Was York road curve built before hotel curve? Looking at the map it appears that hotel curve blocks the southern end of maiden lane curve as if the latter closed to build hotel curve.

The mystery tunnel doesn't seem to be on this map it should be in the bottom left of the map

As far as I know all three were built at the same time and I think that the Hotel curve goes above the Maiden Lane curve.

 

Jamie

[roythebus]

Looking at early prints of the area including the opening days, the Maiden Lane connection appears to be shown. I'd suggest, looking at the maps and tunnel diagrams on here, that it cut across the junction with Hotel Curve. There's no room for it to go over anything.

Edited January 15, 2016 by roythebus

[russ p]

Looking at early prints of the area including the opening days, the Maiden Lane connection appears to be shown. I'd suggest, looking at the maps and tunnel diagrams on here, that it cut across the junction with Hotel Curve.

As a kind of crossover?

In the NRM there is a 3d model of Camden, we could do with one of king's Cross

[roythebus]

I'd suggest a diamond crossing.

 

There used to be a 3D model of Notting Hill Gate station on display at that station in the 1960's. I don't know where that went to.

[jamie92208]

Lookin at that diagram of the Kings Cross area again it looks as if the exit from the Maiden Lane Cirve onto the Circle was at the same point as the entrance to the Hotel Curve so a diamond crossing as part of the junction looks like a possibility.

 

Jamie

[Nearholmer]

This image has been discussed elsewhere before, and it isn't totally clear from those discussions exactly what it shows, but, here is a bash:

 

- I think we are standing on the "circle line", looking west;

 

- I think the horse is hauling a wagon up the west-north connection;

 

- I think the tunnel through which we see the horse,mand which is still under construction behind it, is the hotel curve.

 

- which means that the horse is on the site of the flat crossing that is under discussion.

 

Views? Thoughts?

 

Kevin

[jamie92208]

That view is a good one and fits almost exactly with how I envisaged it from studying that 3D plan of the area.  The actual xing looks to be just north of the circle line Thanks very much for digging that out.

 

Jamie

[russ p]

I'd agree with that, there doesn't seem to be any track on the hotel curve.

It's a very messey way of doing things, you'd have thought that at that time there would be enough space to get the geometry to build it without underground crossings.

What hasn't been discussed on here was an LNER plan for suburban trains to turn on a loop at king's Cross

[Nearholmer]

Russ

 

They were struggling with how to get the Fleet Sewer across the railway a little further East, and had to dodge round the foundations of the facade of K+, so I guess this weird layout was kind of forced upon them.

 

The Hotel curve was, incidentally, for passenger trains, and the west-north curve for goods trains, both single-track, and both, I think, used bi-directionally.

 

All changed when the widened lines were built shortly after.

 

K

[Derekstuart]

Kevin

 

forgive my ignorance here as many people are mentioning locations that I either don't know or know by another name. In that picture of the engraving, if I wanted to stand on the road/pavement/ in a building etc directly above that, where would I need to stand?

 

I can't quite put all these pieces together.

 

(I will go in the corner with the dunces hat if anyone thinks it appropriate)

[russ p]

Hi Derek I think you'd be in the Euston road between king's Cross and St pancras

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Russ

 

Sorry I didn't read Kevin's post properly. It seems there is no 100% consensus on where it is.

 

The map I saw shows four separate tunnels joining at that location- St P and KX both having a North and South tunnel. But I wouldn't rely on that.

 

I will re-read this thread from the beginning.

 

 

 

EDIT: Note that there are 5 running rails. A mistake the artist or is one of them a dual gauge line linking across London to the GWR broad?

Edited January 15, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Grovenor]

The Metropolitan Railway did part-build a single-track connection between Moorgate and Liverpool Street  which was both opened and closed in 1875 (01/02/1875 - 11/07/1875) and which would have entered Liverpool Street main line station via platform 1.  That platform (until the rebuilding) was longer than its neighbours and contained a bricked-up tunnel portal at the buffer stops.  I have found no firm evidence that the connection was ever completed nor used though conjecturally one train may have used it.  It would seem reasonable then that a connection to the LNWR at Euston via Kings Cross St Pancras might have been envisaged and allowed for even if never built.

 

The Met connection was certainly built and used for many years, i am pretty sure it was double track, using both platforms 1 & 2. For the period 1/2/75 to 11/7/75 it was used to terminate Met trains and that use ended when the Met opened their own station. Through trains, with engine change from electric to steam did however run. The link was only removed in 1904.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Street_station

I do remember seeing photos of the through trains somewhere.

Regards

[roythebus]

The Met was built as dual gauge, including the Paddington-Hammersmith section. I've seen a photo recently of a broad gauge train at Hammersmith Met station. Certainly the tunnels from Paddington to Farringdon were made to take double track broad gauge. The service was, if I remember correctly, operated by the Great Western.

 

The junction shown in the engraving is to the east of Kings Cross, probably under York Way and road junction at Pentonville Road, Caledonian Road and Farringdon Road as Hotel Curve follows the line of the frontage of the hotel. The line from York Road follows as mentioned earlier the line of the backs of the shops in York Way.

[Derekstuart]

But if that's to the East of KX and the engraver is standing with his back to York Road, surely he should be on a single road tunnel?

[Brian Kirby]

The copy of the engraving shown above, does seem to show the GN connections in both directions at KX (but not the York Road tunnel, which would be behind us here), so this must be circa 1863. According to the "Steam On The Widened Lines. Vol1" book, there was an interruption here in July 1867, when the junctions were rebuilt to accommodate the new "Widened Lines" on the north side. I suggest this may have been when the GN north-to-west spur was abandoned, when the new tunnel cut right across, throwing off new GN and MR connections to the north, and continued along Euston Road to our "mystery tunnel" section. These new junctions and new line to Farringdon were complete and running by 1868. According to the same book, thanks to the rebuilding, the LCDR had to delay the beginning of their Continental boat train service from the GN York Road, the GN even provided a French-speaking booking office clerk here. How ironic that today's continental service is but a stone's throw away, in the opposite direction.   BK

[Nearholmer]

Gents,

 

The engraver is under the junction of Euston Road, Pentonville Road, and Grays Inn Road, facing west.

 

This map http://maps.nls.uk/view/101201496shows the basic outline of the tunnels beneath the streets, post widened Lines, and omitting the remnants of the west-east tunnel. One can trace the "mystery tunnel" to its end at the junction of Euston Road and Midland Road.

 

This area must have been a permanent building site from c1850 to c1890 ......... Bit like recent years really!

 

Kevin

[Derekstuart]

Kevin

 

I don't understand how he can be facing West as that doesn't fit the drawing of the tunnels on the map. Is it not more likely that he has his back to the York Road tunnel. This map shows the two GN tunnels meeting BEFORE they join the Met lines, which I always thought they did not (but I know little about this)

[Grovenor]

 

This map shows the two GN tunnels meeting BEFORE they join the Met lines, which I always thought they did not (but I know little about this)

it doesn't look like that to me, the hotel curve joins the Met right under the Pentonville Rd junction, the York road curve joins right at the end of the Met platforms, well behind the engraver.

I agree he is looking West, the two tracks going off to the left are the Met tracks, only one being mixed gauge apparently, the tunnel going off to the right and unfinished is the hotel curve, the track crossing the hotel curve with the horse and wagon is the West to North curve that does not appear on this map, but does show on the one linked above.

Regards

[Edwin_m]

Kevin

 

I don't understand how he can be facing West as that doesn't fit the drawing of the tunnels on the map. Is it not more likely that he has his back to the York Road tunnel. This map shows the two GN tunnels meeting BEFORE they join the Met lines, which I always thought they did not (but I know little about this)

If you're referring to Nearholmer's map then it doesn't appear to show the Maiden Lane (north to west) curve.  By the time of the map this would have been out of use and partly obliterated by the later connection to the Midland. 

 

Grovenor has got in first! 

 

By the fact the "mystery" tunnel finishes on the western boundary of St Pancras I would guess it was contemporary with construction of that station and of the Midland connection which I seem to recall (without any evidence!) was built at the same time.  Almost as if somebody decided that they might as well build it in case they ever needed it, and it would be difficult to build later once the St Pancras Hotel was in the way.  Perhaps in a fit of enthusiasm they thought if they were connecting to St Pancras they should make a bid for the Euston line too, thus linking all the northern termini that existed at the time. 

 

To continue it as cut and cover they would have had to demolish part of the goods depot (was that built at the same time too?) but perhaps it was deep enough to continue as a bored tunnel after that. 

Edited January 15, 2016 by Edwin_m

[Derekstuart]

Ah, right. Thanks Keith.

 

Is 'Hotel Curve' the one leading up to the West side of KX next to the GN hotel (I don't want to assume anything just because it passes the hotel as there are two big hotels there and probably several other smaller ones)

 

 

EDIT: Just found the reference to the name Hotel Curve. Thanks.

 

Thanks for the further clarification Edwin.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Nearholmer]

Derek

 

Two rough sketches, first of which shows the situation that I am fairly sure matches the engraving.

 

Second one shows the situation only a few years later, once the widened lines had been punched through the area.

 

I would be grateful for others' views as to whether I've got this about right - would be unfair to pester my archivist colleague with it at the weekend!

 

Kevin

[Derekstuart]

Kevin

 

You are a Gent and a font of knowledge.

 

The annoying thing is that years ago I had been down many of these tunnels (before Thameslink days) and was with a 'guide' who was probably a leading authority on the subject, although he is no longer with us to ask.

 

Again, my thanks for your patient explanation.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Derekstuart

[roythebus]

We seem to have got it right at last. Unless anyone can prove otherwise!