LT King's Cross Mystery Tunnel

[SUPERCOSS]

This image has been discussed elsewhere before, and it isn't totally clear from those discussions exactly what it shows, but, here is a bash:

 

- I think we are standing on the "circle line", looking west;

 

- I think the horse is hauling a wagon up the west-north connection;

 

- I think the tunnel through which we see the horse,mand which is still under construction behind it, is the hotel curve.

 

- which means that the horse is on the site of the flat crossing that is under discussion.

 

Views? Thoughts?

 

Kevin

 

Very late to the party,but for a first post, prompted by another member who made me aware of this thread, I bring this -

http://bed-pan.homestead.com/HotelCurvedisused.JPG

 

Looking  west, bricked up 'Hotel Curve' on the right with current Thameslink 'Up Moorgate' Line centre and 'Down Moorgate' extreme left just out of shot

[rodent279]

The Met connection was certainly built and used for many years, i am pretty sure it was double track, using both platforms 1 & 2. For the period 1/2/75 to 11/7/75 it was used to terminate Met trains and that use ended when the Met opened their own station. Through trains, with engine change from electric to steam did however run. The link was only removed in 1904.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Street_station

I do remember seeing photos of the through trains somewhere.

Regards

 

Fascinating, I never knew there was a connection between the Met/Circle & Liv St mainline station. Is it shown here on this map, branching off the Met/Circle just before the box?

I presume it would have come out into platform 1/2 of Liv St. If only they'd had the foresight & joined up thinking to maintain the connection, and extend the Widened Lines west to Baker St and/or Bishops Rd. That would have been a Victorian/Edwardian Crossrail!

 

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101201565#zoom=2&lat=3718&lon=9987&layers=BT

 

Cheers N

[woodenhead]

Those tracks head under the station to a terminus used by the Metroplitan for a few months when the station first opened.

[Nearholmer]

I'm pretty certain they head into Platforms 1 and 2 of the GER station, which were used as a terminus by the Met for about 18 months, until their own station was finished. The Met actually got to the GER station before the GER themselves, who hadn't finished work on the approaches.

 

The track levels between the Met and GER are almost the same.

 

This tunnel was used much later to house a telecoms facility (it had probably been something else along the way, too), I think, but has now been swept away by Crossrail work.

 

Kevin

[rodent279]

Not picky at all.  I'm always happy to be corrected in the interests of historical accuracy.

 

Equally off-topic but of passing interest here is the fact that the LNER routes to Alexandra Palace and Highgate / Edgware were all set to be come tubes under the 1935 New Works Programme.  Finsbury Park - Alexandra Palace never made it nor did the connection to Golders Green beyond Highgate but once the Northern Line took over beyond Highgate the new Golders Green depot was used to service the Northern City Line units meaning they ran from Moorgate via Finsbury Park and the otherwise unused route via Crouch End to Highgate and the depot.  Once Drayton Park - Finsbury Park closed that route ceased to be available and they were then worked via Finsbury Park (BR), Kings Cross (York Road / Hotel Curve), the City Widened Lines, then the BR to LT crossover to access Moorgate platforms 3 / 4 and thence to Neasden depot.  A very circuitous route and one which not only resulted in units of 1938 tube stock travelling between the levels at Moorgate (platforms 9/10 to 3/4 though not in traffic and not usually as a through working) and also across the throat of Kings Cross main line.  they were topped and tailed by battery electric locos for these trips which always caused great interest and some gasps of disbelief among the spotters on the platforms ends.

 

Would this be what you describe? :-)

 

https://flic.kr/p/9Vo1aA

https://flic.kr/p/aQPozn

https://flic.kr/p/akybjo

https://flic.kr/p/aQPp52

https://flic.kr/p/9USi8o

[Nearholmer]

Brings back the memories!

 

I'm always slightly disappointed when I go to Kings Cross and get reminded that it isn't still like that.

 

The workings in the opposite direction popped out of the tunnel, sneaked past York Road, and popped into the other tunnel, blink and you would miss it!

 

K

[rodent279]

Try telling people that you can legitimately operate a Deltic, 40, 47, LT battery loco & 1938 stock on the same layout, vitually sharing the same tracks, and see what response you get!

[Nearholmer]

Even some of the suburban trains would make people scratch their heads. DMMUS and Class 31 might be expected, but Class 40 trailing rakes of Mk1 suburban might not. They were sooooo sloooow getting away from stops that the preceding steam service was probably nippier.

[rodent279]

Even some of the suburban trains would make people scratch their heads. DMMUS and Class 31 might be expected, but Class 40 trailing rakes of Mk1 suburban might not. They were sooooo sloooow getting away from stops that the preceding steam service was probably nippier.

 

40's never worked to Moorgate did they? No way!

[Nearholmer]

Not to Moorgate, at least, not that I've heard of; I think they'd be too long to squirm up through Hotel Curve.

 

There were some loco-hauled trains that terminated in the suburban platforms at Kings Cross, and 40s were used on some of those.

 

Should mention Greeley buffet cars on the Cambridge trains too, since they were another thing that made the place interesting.

 

K

[chris p bacon]

Even some of the suburban trains would make people scratch their heads. DMMUS and Class 31 might be expected, but Class 40 trailing rakes of Mk1 suburban might not. They were sooooo sloooow getting away from stops that the preceding steam service was probably nippier.

 

There were approx 4 trains which would be classed a 'commuter' to and from KX when spotting at Sandy in the 70's, they were to and from Peterborough,  and in the evening at least 2 would be 31's (Brian's) another might be a Finsbury Park 47 and the 4th would invariably be a 'Foreign' engine. The occasional 46 would appear but a 40 was common, Although not the fastest getaway,  compared to a 31 it was positively F1. 

[rodent279]

There were approx 4 trains which would be classed a 'commuter' to and from KX when spotting at Sandy in the 70's, they were to and from Peterborough,  and in the evening at least 2 would be 31's (Brian's) another might be a Finsbury Park 47 and the 4th would invariably be a 'Foreign' engine. The occasional 46 would appear but a 40 was common, Although not the fastest getaway,  compared to a 31 it was positively F1. 

 

Let's face it, even my Morris Minor is F1 compared to a 31......

[Dava]

The Cross up to the late 1970's was a steam railway terminus which happened to be operated by diesel locos - 31, 37, 45, 47, 55 - and of course DMUs. The end of the Moorgate trains over the Widened Lines [i was there], closure of the Loco depot, and fleet replacement of 55s by HST changed it by steps which included changes in track layout, signaling and then electrification. It's amazing it lasted so long. The photos linked in this thread bear it out. No other London terminus had quite that drama [nowhere else had 55s to provide the sound dimension] but Liverpool St in the same period ran it close.

 

Dava

[Southernman46]

Agreed - as a kid I always enjoyed the "Eastern" half of my circular London trainspotting trips more - starting with the anticipation coming up that last set of stairs into the "noise" at KX stops .................... always made up for getting chucked out of Willesden electric depot (again) earlier ...........

 

Jumpers for goalposts .....

Edited June 22, 2017 by Southernman46

[Nearholmer]

We're wandering OT into a bit of a nostalgia-fest, but wouldn't a "slice", from the ends of the train she'd roves, to the tunnel mouths, make a great layout on which to display sound-fitted O scale diesels? It would need a blue smoke generator, though.

[faa77]

Sorry to hijack, but god I found this thread so interesting! I'm guessing the tunnel between Metropolitan and Liverpool St platforms 1 and 2 no-longer exists because that would be located where the current-day concourse and associated shops are? Although perhaps part of the tunnel towards the metropolitan end still exists?

 

Are there any other interesting, little-known, zone 1 junctions?

[roythebus]

That tunnel fell out of use about 1901 IIRC. It was latterly used as the LT staff canteen. 

[Bucoops]

Is this the tunnel entrance at Liverpool St?

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/560/liverpool-street-station-great-eastern-railway-10013543.jpg

 

Obviously out of use by the time the picture was taken.

[jamie92208]

That looks like it to me and is in the right place connecting to platforms 1 and 2.

 

Jamie

[Swindon 123]

Is this the tunnel entrance at Liverpool St?

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/560/liverpool-street-station-great-eastern-railway-10013543.jpg

 

Obviously out of use by the time the picture was taken.

Yes it is. Later the footbridge was done away with and a platform level connection was made by filling in the area where the buffer stops where and making a walkway. I seem to remember that part of the tunnel was used for the Liverpool st staff gymnasium, (of all things) and the staff bar. Frequented the place a couple of times, the bar, not the gym!

 

Paul J.

[Bucoops]

I'm not very familiar with the west side of Liverpool St but I never knew it was a through station, even if only for a short while

[Edwin_m]

From what I remember of Liverpool Street in the 1980s the stops on platforms 1 and 2 were still further back than those of the adjacent platforms, although that was probably overshadowed by the many other peculiarities of the station at the time.  The back wall at the Underground end of the connection is still evident at the Moorgate end of the Aldgate-bound platform, partly hidden by a disused signal box which is itself pretty old. 

[CarriageShed]

I didn't have a clue about that junction either. If only I had when I used to be a Liverpool Street commuter!

 

If the junction used to head westbound then it would seem to be this which is visible on the OS map here, immediately to the south of Liverpool Street itself:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=51.5177&lon=-0.0838&layers=168&right=BingHyb

 

The map also shows the Metropolitan Railway signal box. Is that the same position as the one that survives today? That one is visible on photo 3 on this page:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/RailwayWalks/Britain/Relics/2012/RailwayRelics2012.html

 

There's an angled wall behind it which would be roughly in alignment with the junction tracks...

Edited December 13, 2017 by CarriageShed

[Nearholmer]

The junction alignment is clearly visible on late C19th maps. I've posted an excerpt of one before, but which thread it was in ....... really, dunno!

 

Maybe this one, if you read back through it.

 

Quicker still, here it is again. From behind the Met SC to P1&2.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Nearholmer

[faa77]

The junction alignment is clearly visible on late C19th maps. I've posted an excerpt of one before, but which thread it was in ....... really, dunno!

 

Maybe this one, if you read back through it.

 

Quicker still, here it is again. From behind the Met SC to P1&2.

 

What's the south-most (left-most on your map) platform at the underground station?