Beginners OO 1950's Banff

[DOCJACOB]

Seem to recall that 2 height loading banks were common in Scotland, possibly specific to Scotland 

 

Usually difference was more than 18 inches though. Think height of a 7 plank wagon was more common & allowed tipper truck to empty contents directly into the wagon? 

[Tortuga]

What was the outgoing traffic from Banff?

[37Oban]

To make it easier to hand load fish boxes into open wagons?

 

Roja

[aardvark]

17 hours ago, Tortuga said:

What was the outgoing traffic from Banff?

 

I'm no authority on the subject, but I believe herring, salmon, timber, cattle, pigs, sheep, grain, turnips.  There was also a distillery and foundry in the area.  Inbound was coal and homing pigeons.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by aardvark
reply to 37Oban separately

[aardvark]

16 hours ago, 37Oban said:

To make it easier to hand load fish boxes into open wagons?

 

Maybe. Dunno.  But I appreciate your input.

 

Originally, the major feature of Banff was a line that ran all the way to the harbour, but this was removed early on.  Nevertheless, herring traffic seems to have continued into the 1950s, and if so, the herring might come from the harbour, although I understand Whitehills harbour and even Macduff were more active.  Whitehills traffic would probably have gone to Ladysbridge rather than Banff, but I'm don't really know.

 

In any case, herring would have come by horse and cart, or motor truck, and would not have needed additional elevation at the loading bank.

 

My person best guess is for small livestock (sheep, pigs), but only if double-story livestock wagons were in use in Scotland similar to those common in Australia.  I've seen no reference to such a thing , so this seems unlikely.

 

It might be as @DOCJACOB suggested, a means to dump a load of potatoes or turnips into an open wagon, but again, I've no evidence of any such practice.

[aardvark]

An uncharacteristic double post today.

 

I've just noticed that this thread has attracted 40 followers, 329 replies and 34.4k views. That's over 100 views/reply, and even after I've discounted my own views, I find that surprising , as the layout is far from iconic or newsworthy.

 

Can I trust these statistics? Dunno: something about lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

Reminds me of this: what do statistics and a bikini have in common? What they reveal is interesting, but what they conceal is vital.

 

best regards to all

 

 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, aardvark said:

 

Maybe. Dunno.  But I appreciate your input.

 

Originally, the major feature of Banff was a line that ran all the way to the harbour, but this was removed early on.  Nevertheless, herring traffic seems to have continued into the 1950s, and if so, the herring might come from the harbour, although I understand Whitehills harbour and even Macduff were more active.  Whitehills traffic would probably have gone to Ladysbridge rather than Banff, but I'm don't really know.

 

In any case, herring would have come by horse and cart, or motor truck, and would not have needed additional elevation at the loading bank.

 

My person best guess is for small livestock (sheep, pigs), but only if double-story livestock wagons were in use in Scotland similar to those common in Australia.  I've seen no reference to such a thing , so this seems unlikely.

 

It might be as @DOCJACOB suggested, a means to dump a load of potatoes or turnips into an open wagon, but again, I've no evidence of any such practice.

The Highland Railway certainly had double deck sheep wagons. Don't know about the GNoSR though.

[aardvark]

On 21/01/2022 at 13:55, aardvark said:

I've seen no reference to such a thing , so this seems unlikely.

 

On 21/01/2022 at 17:14, St Enodoc said:

The Highland Railway certainly had double deck sheep wagons. Don't know about the GNoSR though.

 

It seems the only think that is unlikely is the depth of my ignorance .  Many thanks - further investigation is clearly warranted.

 

Edited: Steam Days #395 July 2022 p60 identifies "a lorry is in the process of loading sheep into a livestock wagon for onward transport by rail", so I guess that settles that.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by aardvark

[ianathompson]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The Highland Railway certainly had double deck sheep wagons. Don't know about the GNoSR though.

 

Having my own interest in the GNoSR I bought the book about their wagons (Tatlow's LNER Vol 3 Pre-Grouping wagons of the NBR and GNS.)

The GNoSR did not have double deck sheep wagons.

GNoSR wagons were about as basic as it was possible to find in the pre-Grouping era.

 

From the figures in Appendix 4~ Wagon stock absorbed by the LNER; the GNoSR contributed 2581 open wagons as against 565 vans.

 

It seems that fish was carried in barrels loaded onto opens, and much else, including whisky, was treated in the same way.

Presumably the vast majority of the catch from Macduff, Banff, Whitehills or Buckie etc went out as salted rather than fresh fish.

In many cases, I suspect, but cannot prove it, any fresh fish for the south went out in NBR wagons.

This is what I have assumed for my, incomplete, GNoSR layouts in N gauge.

 

Ian T

Edited January 21, 2022 by ianathompson
typo

[aardvark]

Coincidentally (or perhaps not), there's been a parallel discussion about dual height loading banks here: Two level loading banks.  I'll leave it as an exercise for any interested reader.

 

I also asked the question of the GNoSRA, and got only the following single reply:

 

Quote

My surmise is that the lower level is for loading vans or wagons through doors at underframe level. The higher level for top-loading of open wagons by hand or by cranes where the extra height is an advantage.

 

Bottom line: Banff and many other stations had dual level loading banks because they were useful.

[aardvark]

One of the next tasks is construction of the loading bank – think gravel car park.  As always, I have no experience in this area, so I’d appreciate some guidance.  Everyone probably has their own approach, but if anyone can contribute a “this is what I do” reply, then I would appreciate it. At this stage, I just need to know about forming the ground surface.

 

I’ve read that in the days of yore, modellers used cardboard formers inter-filled with crumpled newspaper, covered with strips of glue paper, and skimmed with plaster.  Later, I’ve heard of EPS (polystyrene), and XPS form (insulation panels).

 

The video Realistic Scenery Volume 2 - Modelling an old dirt road caught my attention.  His results look good, and the modeller uses products that I can access: extruded foam (XPS?) and Sculta-mold.

 

I have gained the impression that industrial-sized insulation panels could be had for a song, whereas an Australian hardware chain has 1200x600x50mm XPS for A$23 (£12), which seems to miss both targets of “industrial-sized” and “song”.  Most likely I have misunderstood, or am looking at the wrong type of foam.

 

Or just being cheap.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by aardvark
restored missing link

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, aardvark said:

One of the next tasks is construction of the loading bank – think gravel car park.  As always, I have no experience in this area, so I’d appreciate some guidance.  Everyone probably has their own approach, but if anyone can contribute a “this is what I do” reply, then I would appreciate it. At this stage, I just need to know about forming the ground surface.

 

I’ve read that in the days of yore, modellers used cardboard formers inter-filled with crumpled newspaper, covered with strips of glue paper, and skimmed with plaster.  Later, I’ve heard of EPS (polystyrene), and XPS form (insulation panels).

 

The video Realistic Scenery Volume 2 - Modelling an old dirt road caught my attention.  His results look good, and the modeller uses products that I can access: extruded foam (XPS?) and Sculta-mold.

 

I have gained the impression that industrial-sized insulation panels could be had for a song, whereas an Australian hardware chain has 1200x600x50mm XPS for A$23 (£12), which seems to miss both targets of “industrial-sized” and “song”.  Most likely I have misunderstood, or am looking at the wrong type of foam.

 

Or just being cheap.

 

Proper XPS foam is certainly the stuff you want if you can find it at a good price, or even at all. The Australian hardware chain used to sell an excellent XPS foam product made by a company called Knauf (usual disclaimer). However, they now only sell the type you mention, which online reviewers consider to be inferior.

[Graham T]

1 hour ago, aardvark said:

One of the next tasks is construction of the loading bank – think gravel car park.  As always, I have no experience in this area, so I’d appreciate some guidance.  Everyone probably has their own approach, but if anyone can contribute a “this is what I do” reply, then I would appreciate it. At this stage, I just need to know about forming the ground surface.

 

I’ve read that in the days of yore, modellers used cardboard formers inter-filled with crumpled newspaper, covered with strips of glue paper, and skimmed with plaster. 

 

 

I use this method in days of now on Chuffnell Regis, and find it works well.  It's also cheap, reasonably quick, and easy to modify later if required.

 

For the gravel surface, chinchilla dust might be suitable (apparently not made from minced chinchillas, it's something they like to clean themselves with).

[Ian Smeeton]

I have heard of whatever surface material being used being filed or sanded down after laying to give a suitably fine appearance.

 

I haven't tried it yet, though

 

Regards

 

Ian

[St Enodoc]

As it happens, there is an interesting article on using both XPS sheets and expanding foam spray for scenery, in the February 2022 Australian Model Railway Magazine.

[aardvark]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

As it happens, there is an interesting article on using both XPS sheets and expanding foam spray for scenery, in the February 2022 Australian Model Railway Magazine.

 

Most informative, and interesting. Many thanks for pointing this out, as I rarely bother with Australian magazines.

 

For anyone without access to the article, the basic idea is instead of stacking XPS sheets up to make a solid pile that is then sculpted, the pieces of sheets are used to rough-out the surface of the ground being modeled, supported at angles as necessary, giving a hollow pile.  Gaps are filled with spray foam, which hardens before sculpting.

 

The article goes on to describe skinning with plaster, then tile grout, etc.

[St Enodoc]

39 minutes ago, aardvark said:

 

Most informative, and interesting. Many thanks for pointing this out, as I rarely bother with Australian magazines.

 

For anyone without access to the article, the basic idea is instead of stacking XPS sheets up to make a solid pile that is then sculpted, the pieces of sheets are used to rough-out the surface of the ground being modeled, supported at angles as necessary, giving a hollow pile.  Gaps are filled with spray foam, which hardens before sculpting.

 

The article goes on to describe skinning with plaster, then tile grout, etc.

I buy all 6 issues per year. There are usually some good articles on construction methods and the layouts are often impressive, The purely Australian stuff is of less interest to me, though.

 

https://www.australianmodelrailwaymagazine.com.au/

[aardvark]

On 25/01/2022 at 19:42, St Enodoc said:

Proper XPS foam is certainly the stuff you want if you can find it at a good price, or even at all. The Australian hardware chain used to sell an excellent XPS foam product made by a company called Knauf (usual disclaimer). However, they now only sell the type you mention, which online reviewers consider to be inferior.

 

A status report, of sorts.

 

I've investigated and found two companies that will sell XPS foam by the sheet: one is from the other side of the country, although they want 3 times the price of a sheet of foam to ship it 4,300km (I could do the 92hr drive there and back, but the borders are closed ).  The other company is more local, but has a $200 minimum, which is probably way more than a lifetime supply, which is another way of saying it's more than my life is worth.  XPS is also available at various art shops, but in small but expensive pieces.

 

By comparison, the chain-store XPS foam is of poor quality, being quite coarse, and probably doesn't sculpt as well as the good stuff.  It's one advantage is that it's accessible.

 

Expanded "bead" polystyrene (EPS) is cheaper and more readily available than XPS.  It's probably messier and won't sculpt as well as any of the XPS's, but I'm not entirely sure that that matters if I'm going to skin in plaster or similar. Provided I don't mind the cleanup.

 

Both forms of foam give a solid construction that is more sculpt-able than the open construction of cardboard formers (easier to take a bit off later), and more suited  to embedding things like telegraph poles and fence posts.

 

In true form, I'll probably procrastinate over this for a while yet

[aardvark]

(duplicate)

Edited January 29, 2022 by aardvark

[Ben Alder]

I applied Sculptamould  over wetted paper formers and spread a 1/4" or so thick layer. Once dry it is self supporting and holds trees and poles more than adequately. I have recently being cutting through sections to reposition some point motors and it needed a Stanley knife to get it done, so it is a robust material.

 

[aardvark]

On 15/05/2020 at 10:56, aardvark said:

I had previous known about britainfromabove.org.uk,  and that you can download low-res images for personal use (free).  I have only just learnt that if you create an account (also free), then you can zoom into high-res versions of their images.

 

Hence, I have a better view of the mysterious northern side of the goods shed.

 

I've discovered a "new" way of using britainfromabove.org.uk.  As previously noted, you can download higher res jpgs if you create a free account, but I've just found that you can zoom into an image, then right-click to save a cropped png with even high resolution.

 

Now, I have a very good view of the northern side of the Banff goods shed.

[aardvark]

I managed to pick up a sheet of XPS foam from a building supply company in Brisbane that was happy to sell me a single sheet at a price somewhat around that of the national hardware chain store. They even cut it in half for me, so it would fit in our car. I suspect that the sheets are a standard 2.4x0.6m size, at various thicknesses. I opted for 30mm.

 

Here's a couple of pics showing the first rough cut for the loading bank.  Sculpting to follow.

 

 

 

I suspect that the vacuum will get a workout.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by aardvark
manually restored lost images

[aardvark]

How big is a good shed?  I imagine that this is a piece-of-string question.

 

Comparison of my carefully drawn plans for the Banff goods shed against the high-res image from britainfromabove.org.uk

 

 

 

My drawing is 42' x 27'. The image suggests more like 51'.

 

Electronic eavesdropper - damn! (6)

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by aardvark
manually restored lost images

[Ben Alder]

Selective compression - essential  in modelling unfortunately... the trick is to get it so the the whole thing blends in to the eye. I suspect that if you built the shed to the correct length it would overwhelm the yard  layout.

 

[aardvark]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:45, Ben Alder said:

Selective compression - essential  in modelling unfortunately... the trick is to get it so the the whole thing blends in to the eye. I suspect that if you built the shed to the correct length it would overwhelm the yard  layout.

 

Hmmm - it's not often that I can manage to get things correctly wrong.

 

Seriously, thanks for setting me straight - your guidance is invaluable. Let me see if I've got this - because now's a good time since I haven't built any model buildings yet.

 

The goods shed in my layout can/should be made a bit smaller than prototype because it is at the front, and so won't obscure quite so much of the track, platform and station building behind.  I don't think I can do much with the width of the shed, as it's pretty much determined by the track gauge, so all I can do is make it shorter, as I've accidentally done.  Moreover, there isn't much to be gained by making it longer than a couple of wagons excepting slavish adherence to the prototype, which I tend to do because I know no better.  Should I flatten the pitch of the roof?

 

The only other building at the front of the layout is the signal-box, which is small anyway, so not a problem.

 

Can the station building and engine shed be modeled to scale since they're at the back and not obscuring anything?

 

 

The station building is quite large at 120', but then it probably needs to accommodate a couple of 57' carriages.

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by aardvark
manually restored lost images