Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

But, in 1910 they ran a poll/contest, where modellers were asked to list the wagons that they thought would sell best ...

 

And were told "MR D299, because every goods yard in the country must feature at least one"!

[Compound2632]

Accepting the spin for a moment - and if he was talking about a class of locomotives in production rather than a prototype for testing, he may have had a point - this belies the oft-repeated “small engine” policy of the Midland (they were also building the 3F 0-6-0s which would rank very well contemporaneously in terms of power). Until some point towards the latter part of the Edwardian era, the MR was generally at the forefront of locomotive design and development. At this point, someone did some sums, and worked out that double-headed freight trains, and fast, frequent passenger trains of relatively short length was a more economical way of making a return on capital investment for the shareholders. That is, after all, the fiduciary duty of the Board.

 

The much-derided “small engine” policy applied for fewer than 20 years of the Midland Railway’s 88 year corpate existence, and then because the engines had simply become big enough to do the job required.

 

The decision to impose this on the whole of the LMS without a proper assessment of the impact, however, was the kind of ill-considered arrogance we see all too often from “successful” businessmen (not been enough businesswomen making this sort of balls-up to be able to use gender neutral words!) throughout time. What worked once in specific circumstances is not necessarily universal.

 

GEC-Marconi anyone?

 

Paget was speaking soon after the first pair of compounds entered service, so I suppose one could say that they and the second batch of three were protoypes, with larger-scale production only starting under Deeley, with a significantly revised design (not a "Smith" compound, quite apart from the radical change in external styling). The 3F belpaire rebuilds came rather later - from 1916 - though there were goods engines with H round-topped boilers turned out in small numbers from the very end of Johnson's tenure and under Deeley.

 

Operational, management and economic conditions conspire to obscure how forward-thinking the Derby drawing office was in the early 20th century. The "Flatiron" 0-6-4Ts for instance were the outcome of a design development process that could have resulted in a 2-6-4T very like the LMS 4P of 20 years later - widely considered a very successful design. To see what might have been, one need only look at what ex-Derby SECR chief draughtsman James Clayton did once in partnership with Richard Maunsell. 

 

The failure adequately to resolve the operational problems of the West Coast main line was a situation inherited from the LNWR at Grouping.

 

Edit: Ref. Philip Atkins, The evolution of the 'Flatirons', Midland Record No. 9 (Wild Swan Publications, n.d.).

Edited January 12, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I take it that you are not considering the City, Flowers, Badminton and other GWR 4-4-0s . Hardly flops, the Dukes, Bulldogs etc were good for the lighter lines. I think the problem with the 3800 class was too much power from the cylinders not well balanced.

 

Incidentally didn't George V also have a bell?

 

Don 

 

I was forcing the facts to fit my good atlantic - bad 4-6-0 - superlative 4-4-0 model. In this context, the Counties, the last express passenger 4-4-0s, don't fit as they weren't superlative. The successful outside-framed 4-4-0s including the Cities came earlier (in terms of design, not necessarily build date).

 

You are correct, George V had a bell, but not George the Fifth.

[Compound2632]

But, in 1910 they ran a poll/contest, where modellers were asked to list the wagons that they thought would sell best, the winner being the person who got closest to the collective view, then went ahead and commissioned models of them all in time for Christmas!

 

Ecclesiastes 1:9.

 

And were told "MR D299, because every goods yard in the country must feature at least one"!

 

His indoctrination is complete and satisfactory.

[runs as required]

Paget was speaking soon after the first pair of compounds entered service, so I suppose one could say that they and the second batch of three were protoypes, with larger-scale production only starting under Deeley, with a significantly revised design (not a "Smith" compound, quite apart from the radical change in external styling). The 3F belpaire rebuilds came rather later - from 1916 - though there were goods engines with H round-topped boilers turned out in small numbers from the very end of Johnson's tenure and under Deeley.

 

Operational, management and economic conditions conspire to obscure how forward-thinking the Derby drawing office was in the early 20th century. The "Flatiron" 0-6-4Ts for instance were the outcome of a design development process that could have resulted in a 2-6-4T very like the LMS 4P of 20 years later - widely considered a very successful design. To see what might have been, one need only look at what ex-Derby SECR chief draughtsman James Clayton did once in partnership with Richard Maunsell. 

 

The failure adequately to resolve the operational problems of the West Coast main line was a situation inherited from the LNWR at Grouping.

 

Edit: Ref. Philip Atkins, The evolution of the 'Flatirons', Midland Record No. 9 (Wild Swan Publications, n.d.).

A surprising inflection of the CA topic onto my other happy hunting threads Imaginary Locomotives  Imaginary Boardrooms and The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

 

dh

[uax6]

Oh, come ON!

 

If you want elegant and successful Edwardian 4-6-0s, Churchwards Stars and Saints are the exemplars of the genre.

 

H, C & definitely O!

 

I beg to differ, try the HR Clans and Superheated goods......

 

Andy G

 

Edit: Strange that while the English companies were claiming that they had produced the most powerful locos, the little ole' Highland actually did have the most powerful locos... The Jones Goods when introduced was the most powerful as well as the first 4-6-0, the Castles most powerful, the Rivers etc.

The Highland didn't have the luxury of the flat railways that the soft southerners had, they had hills, and had to have locos that could climb them and make money.... 

Edited January 12, 2018 by uax6

[Caley Jim]

To say nothing of 0-4-2s, which have an irresistibly toy-like charm. Now where does the key go?

Here's what an 0-4-2 should look like.

 

 

And in model form (see my avatar for a head on view)

 

 

Jim

[uax6]

I do wonder Jim, why so many make do with English railway companies, when the pre-grouping Scottish companies are far more beautiful and interesting?

 

What a wee bobbie dazzeller that loco is, even more so as its so tiny...

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

Here's what an 0-4-2 should look like.

 

01 - prototype.jpg

 

And in model form (see my avatar for a head on view)

 

14 - Completed model lhs.jpg

 

Jim

 

Nothing like a favourable mention for the 'Sou-West to flush out the Caley enthusiasts! Is that engine actually French?

[Compound2632]

I do wonder Jim, why so many make do with English railway companies, when the pre-grouping Scottish companies are far more beautiful and interesting?

 

What a wee bobbie dazzeller that loco is, even more so as its so tiny...

 

Andy G

 

I refer you to the carriages behind that Manson 4-6-0 in the photo I linked to earlier.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

I do wonder Jim, why so many make do with English railway companies, when the pre-grouping Scottish companies are far more beautiful and interesting?

 

What a wee bobbie dazzeller that loco is, even more so as its so tiny...

 

Andy G

 

Not to mention Irish.

 

If I ever master track construction and then, if I ever master scratch building locos, I think I'll head over the Irish Sea for a spell.

 

I think the relative neglect is somewhat part of a more general north/south divide.  The most neglected of the major English companies is the one that did not run to London.

[Nearholmer]

It would have done itself a favour in terms of being modelled in perpetuity if it had painted its carriages in a livery worth looking at.

 

Kevin

[Caley Jim]

Nothing like a favourable mention for the 'Sou-West to flush out the Caley enthusiasts! Is that engine actually French?

Can't have green engines stealing all the glory! 

 

The general understanding is that it was inspired by a design Buddicombe produced at Crewe for a French company and the drawing somehow found its way to St Rollox (there were strong links between the two works through Alexander Allan in the early days).  I believe the Caley were the only British company to employ outside cylinder 0-4-2's with 5' wheels and the horizontal cylinders in line with the wheel centre.  They had several such classes and found them useful in colliery and industrial areas where tight curves abounded.  One of the later classes were even Westinghouse fitted and one was used as a station pilot at Glasgow Central.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

The most neglected of the major English companies is the one that did not run to London.

 

Actually the North Eastern and Lancashire & Yorkshire both seem to be quite well represented on the exhibition circuit.

[Edwardian]

Actually the North Eastern and Lancashire & Yorkshire both seem to be quite well represented on the exhibition circuit.

 

Well, I suggest only one of the two was a major company!

 

Certainly there are a few pre-Grouping NER layouts that appear up here, well, 3 that I have come across. But, compared with, say, the LB&SC (which, much as I love it, might be said to have been a relatively minor concern)?  Even the GE seems to do as well or better, not that I am complaining.

 

I'm not sure any of this greatly matters, however. Any pre-Grouping layout representing any company is a Good Thing, and the hobby isn't subject to quotas.

 

If we go beyond pre-Grouping, I would say that there are several thousand blue-diesel layouts set in the Scottish Highlands!

[Donw]

Like the South Western, the GW frequently needed a second type of engine to cope with gradients in the south west peninsular, hence the Dukes, a very successful design.

 

Yes, but she never ran on Sodor, so far as I know, and would have been far too heavy for the Ffarquhar branch.

 

The Dukes were quite lightweight and some were used on Cambrian lines to replace the aging Cambrian stock I think they were Yellow route availability lighter than the Bulldogs and the 43xx class. Some were used on Branch lines so may have been suitable for the Ffarguhar branch  their axle load being lighter than Duck.

It is funny but Kings these days go all sorts of places. We have had 6024 at Minehead I presume that at the low speeds allowed on the Branch there is a great reduction in the hammer blow. From my experience of Driving 6024 up and down at Tysley I suspect no sooner had you got the regulator open than you would be thinking about shutting it down again on a short branch.

 

Don

[nick_bastable]

.  The most neglected of the major English companies is the one that did not run to London.

ah you refer to my favorite line the East Kent Light Railway  

 

It may be time to bring back the Pharaoh and crack the whip on those lazy bu&&ers  laying the track to Castle Aching

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

Well, I suggest only one of the two was a major company!

 

I fail to understand why you don't consider the North Eastern a major company.

[Edwardian]

 

It may be time to bring back the Pharaoh and crack the whip on those lazy bu&&ers  laying the track to Castle Aching

 

 

Indeed.  I must re-do the trap points and then tackle to two FB turnouts. Much to do.

 

Then, if I can jury-rig some wiring, try to send Dodo to and fro.  Probably in about 3 weeks' time at the rate it's going. 

 

 

ah you refer to my favorite line the East Kent Light Railway  

 

 

 

No, clearly to be major and important, but neglected, it must be in the North East:

[Regularity]

If we go beyond pre-Grouping, I would say that there are several thousand blue-diesel layouts set in the Scottish Highlands!

The current equivalent to the GWR branch of the 60s/70s?

Or would that “honour” fall to DCC sound equipped MPDs?

[Regularity]

And the antithesis (it didn’t even have any intermediate stations) of major and mighty, but still in the North East of England:

Edited January 12, 2018 by Regularity

[uax6]

or any sort of ballast either by the looks of it...

Andy G

[robmcg]

...

 

I'm not sure any of this greatly matters, however. Any pre-Grouping layout representing any company is a Good Thing, and the hobby isn't subject to quotas.

 

...

 

Heaven forfend!  It's time we had gender-neutral representation in this hobby and also time we had 50-50 male-female representation at exhibitions, or else where would we be?

 

Morning cuppa yet to kick in.

 

To be honest I am quite perplexed by the geographic isolationism of these Yorkshire folk, and it's not as if I haven't travelled. I even met a man from Dorset once.

[Caley Jim]

To be honest I am quite perplexed by the geographic isolationism of these Yorkshire folk, and it's not as if I haven't travelled. I even met a man from Dorset once.

And I'll bet there are plenty Scots in your neck of the woods!  :-)

 

Jim

[corneliuslundie]

it will never get built, but i have always had a hankering for a layout based on the Londonderry Railway. That definitely didn't have a London station.

Or perhaps, further south, but a long way from yellow engine territory, the Pensnett Railway. That didn't have ANY stations.

Jonathaan