Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

North Kent still had coal arriving by coastal shipping at small ports like Whitstable and distributed from there by rail in the early 1900s

Kingston Wharf at Shoreham in Sussex was still big in that role until c1960, of course. And power stations from central London, right the way round the SE coast until much more recently. And all the coal to IoW.

 

Heres Kingston Wharf in 1948, fortunately without a boat blocking the view. Strange wagons; are they some MoS things?

 

 

Any update on the population of G-WN?

 

 

[Schooner]

4 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

...early 1900s...

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

...SE...

 

 And SW, right into the '70s from MV Similarity's regular running Goole-Kingswear (for Hollicombe gas works) to the puffer Snowflake dropping Welsh coal on the beaches of North Devon. Short story is that if coal by sea is desired, coal by sea can be had without stretching anything regrettably.

 

So,

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Coal comes via some of the last remaining NE Collier Brigs to Wolfringham Staithe. WN coal trains from there would logically go to BM for redistribution.

...and on to BM (modelled) for all points North to Birchoverham-next-the-Sea and Fakeney and its branch stations (off-scene); South to all stations to CA and the Achingham branch (part-modelled).

 

Aching Constable and beyond gets its coal from where?

 

11 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

200 wagons/year/1000 population with half this coming in the winter months Nov-Feb

IIUC (and at this time on a Friday night it seems unlikely but here goes), for coal traffic passing through BM we're looking at

• BM (Burnham) - pop. 1.7k = 1-2 wagons/day - gasworks  = 2-3 wagons/week
  • 200 x 1.7 = 340
  • 340 / 2 = 170
  • 170 / 100 = 1.7 = 2
  • 170 / 200 = 0.85 = 1
• North (BntS/Cromer pop c.4k; other stations another 2-3k?) = 3-6 wagons/day - gas works = 4-5 wagons/week
• South (CA pop. 2k; AM pop. 3k; other stations another 1-2k?) = 3-6 wagons/day - gas works = 4-5 wagons/week

Daily total for marshalling: 9-10 (summer) to 15-18 (winter) coal wagons.

 

This a) seems manageable and b) ties in very neatly with the proposed cassette/train/siding lengths.

 

But a) how many settlements on the route have I missed out/underrepresented? And b) do we worry about the WNR's balance of 8- 10- and 12-ton coal wagons?

 

A route map would be a handy thing to re-post if it's available, James, as my memory of it is fairly hazy and I didn't think to save a copy.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Schooner

[Schooner]

13 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

If the line from AC Junction (the one on the plan) down to under CA and the cassettes were to start dropping immediately,

Not enough length to get enough clearance here, so we'd be looking at keeping both lines on the level and a...well, whatever one of these is called:

 

And then I think, for logistics' sake, it'd make sense to run the AC - CA line right round the walls to a cassette under the existing 'North' cassette yard. That gives you a function AC Jnc North (on scene) and AC Jnc South (hidden).

 

Alarm bells are starting to ring re complexity, juice/squeeze etc, but if desired I think it'd be doable.

[papagolfjuliet]

Can I interest you in the delightful Pickering railway gasworks? https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/P/Pickering_Railway_Gas_Works/slideshow.html

[ChrisN]

12 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

 And SW, right into the '70s from MV Similarity's regular running Goole-Kingswear (for Hollicombe gas works) to the puffer Snowflake dropping Welsh coal on the beaches of North Devon. Short story is that if coal by sea is desired, coal by sea can be had without stretching anything regrettably.

 

So,

...and on to BM (modelled) for all points North to Birchoverham-next-the-Sea and Fakeney and its branch stations (off-scene); South to all stations to CA and the Achingham branch (part-modelled).

 

Aching Constable and beyond gets its coal from where?

 

IIUC (and at this time on a Friday night it seems unlikely but here goes), for coal traffic passing through BM we're looking at

• BM (Burnham) - pop. 1.7k = 1-2 wagons/day - gasworks  = 2-3 wagons/week
  • 200 x 1.7 = 340
  • 340 / 2 = 170
  • 170 / 100 = 1.7 = 2
  • 170 / 200 = 0.85 = 1
• North (BntS/Cromer pop c.4k; other stations another 2-3k?) = 3-6 wagons/day - gas works = 4-5 wagons/week
• South (CA pop. 2k; AM pop. 3k; other stations another 1-2k?) = 3-6 wagons/day - gas works = 4-5 wagons/week

Daily total for marshalling: 9-10 (summer) to 15-18 (winter) coal wagons.

 

This a) seems manageable and b) ties in very neatly with the proposed cassette/train/siding lengths.

 

But a) how many settlements on the route have I missed out/underrepresented? And b) do we worry about the WNR's balance of 8- 10- and 12-ton coal wagons?

 

A route map would be a handy thing to re-post if it's available, James, as my memory of it is fairly hazy and I didn't think to save a copy.

 

Although most coal may have been used in November to February, I would assume most was bought in the summer months, as houses had coal cellars/ sheds.  In the summer the collieries still produced coal and to sell it they reduced prices, which were passed onto customers.  When we had a coal fire my mum bought a ton in the summer at these reduced prices, then if it was a hard winter bought another 10cwt in about February, but not every year.  That may even out the numbers of wagons a week.

[Compound2632]

Apropos (a) the Skipton data I've looked at, mentioned by @WFPettigrew, and (b) the location of gasworks:

• I have yet to identify most of the Skipton customers. Some such as Henry Robinson & Sons I know to have been coal merchants, serving not just Skipton but other stations in the area. There's at least one industrial customer, the "Brick Co.". But by far the largest customer, J.J. Robinson, I have yet to find out anything about. Of the gas works the only sign is the occasional wagonload of limestone from Craven Lime at Stainforth and a few wagonloads of coal coming in with J.J. Robinson's consignments from St Johns Colliery, Normanton. This is because:
• the gas works was on the banks of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal and was receiving most of its coal supplies by water as late as the 1940s.
• We have touched on previously that in many towns the gasworks was built before the railway arrived, hence their being awkwardly located relative to one another.

So, I think a coal consumption per head of population based on the Skipton data will be an underestimate as it does not include coal used for gas consumption which was almost entirely domestic at this period. 

[ChrisN]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Apropos (a) the Skipton data I've looked at, mentioned by @WFPettigrew, and (b) the location of gasworks:

• I have yet to identify most of the Skipton customers. Some such as Henry Robinson & Sons I know to have been coal merchants, serving not just Skipton but other stations in the area. There's at least one industrial customer, the "Brick Co.". But by far the largest customer, J.J. Robinson, I have yet to find out anything about. Of the gas works the only sign is the occasional wagonload of limestone from Craven Lime at Stainforth and a few wagonloads of coal coming in with J.J. Robinson's consignments from St Johns Colliery, Normanton. This is because:
• the gas works was on the banks of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal and was receiving most of its coal supplies by water as late as the 1940s.
• We have touched on previously that in many towns the gasworks was built before the railway arrived, hence their being awkwardly located relative to one another.

So, I think a coal consumption per head of population based on the Skipton data will be an underestimate as it does not include coal used for gas consumption which was almost entirely domestic at this period. 

 

 

I have gone from the other end of the calculations on my layout.  Taking the Barmouth census of 1895, there were 2212 people, living/staying in 485 residences.  Taking what we used in coal, which was 1 1/2 tons a year, then Barmouth would have used approximately, 750 tons a year or about 2 tons a day.  This is without the Gasworks, and even then is an underestimate as there were quite a number of hotels that would have used much more than that.

 

2 tons a day, 14 tons a week.  Wagon loads, what size of wagon?  My Coal Merchant has a 8 ton wagon, but when I worked out the wagon volume and the density of the coal it only carried 7 tons.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

2 tons a day, 14 tons a week.  Wagon loads, what size of wagon?  My Coal Merchant has a 8 ton wagon, but when I worked out the wagon volume and the density of the coal it only carried 7 tons.

 

A feature of the Skipton data is that Midland 8-ton wagons were carrying on average 5.5 tons of coal - J.J. Robinson's consignments from St Johns dragging the average down by being themselves on average 5.1 tons or only just over the average tare weight of the wagons. PO wagons, especially those of the collieries, were more often 10 tons, though this is inferred from them carrying up to 7-8 tons! But Yorkshire coal is, I understand, less dense than that from other coalfields - though the density must have varied from seam to seam. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

So, I think a coal consumption per head of population based on the Skipton data will be an underestimate as it does not include coal used for gas consumption which was almost entirely domestic at this period. 

 

Looking back at my notes, your Skipton stats which mostly excluded the gas works came out at  roughly 150 wagons / year / 1000 of population for coal.  

 

The Skipton gas works was serving a popuation of 10,000 and using the Appleby figure as a benchmark (1 ton of coal provided gas for one day day for 1000 people) then Skipton gas works would get through ten tons a day, so that's one or two extra wagons per day (recognising that 6 tons was more like the average load than 10). 

 

That would have given Skipton goods yard 300-600 extra wagons a year - but this is for the 10k population, so pro-rata'd down, that would be 30-60 extra wagons per year for a population of 1000.  

 

My figure of 200 wagons/year/1k populatiobn was based on splitting this difference. The number of coal/coke wagons could be higher in some places (if there was more industry, more people connected to the town gas supply, if it is supplied by a coalfield with less dense coal, etc.) but I felt 200 was a nice round figure that approximated to the data we had.   I did a similar estimated uplift on the Cranleigh figure because of the wooded nature thereabouts which would probably reduce domestic coal consumption. 

 

Does this sound right, or have I got my sums wrong?

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

The Skipton gas works was serving a popuation of 10,000 and using the Appleby figure as a benchmark (1 ton of coal provided gas for one day day for 1000 people) then Skipton gas works would get through ten tons a day, so that's one or two extra wagons per day (recognising that 6 tons was more like the average load than 10). 

 

Or perhaps a couple of barges a week? (What was the capacity of a coal barge?)

 

Any small to medium sized town was probably meeting its own coke demand from its gasworks, with no need for rail transport in or out, is my guess. Only a large city gasworks such as Birmingham's big four would, I think, be in a position to supply coke for large-scale industrial customers. Industrial demand for coke was also met by coking ovens at collieries producing suitable coal, with the gas being discharged to atmosphere, I believe. 

 

(Speculation based on non-systematic observation of maps and photographs.)

Edited October 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

2 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Does this sound right, or have I got my sums wrong?

 

Just for completeness, here are the sums for Skipton:

 

In Oct-Dec inclusive 1897, there were 562 wagons of coal in total delivered for population of 10,000.

 

Pro rata that would be 749 wagons for the four winter months.

 

We need to add the same again for the other 8 months of the year (based on the statement in your thread that the four months of winter used the same as the other 8 months of the year as a rough ballpark.  I know that the Skipton figures are October-December and October was not deemed a peak month (the winter four months for half the total useage were cited as November-February) but it's the best we have. 

 

So double 749 and divde by 10 (because the population is 10,000) gives you c 150 wagons per year per 1000. 

 

I rounded that up to 200 to take into account the gas works.  

 

NB - the figures are based on real wagon deliveries here, and at Cranleigh, so take into account that some wagons were only 8 ton capacity, and not many were loaded to full capacity anyway. 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Just for completeness, here are the sums for Skipton:

 

Update. Since I posted, I've got as far as March:

 

October 1897: 1,245 ton 16 cwt, 201 wagonloads

November 1897: 1,097 ton 15 cwt, 181 wagonloads

December 1897: 1,403 ton 15 cwt, 215 wagonloads

January 1898: 1,325 ton 17 cwt, 214 wagonloads

February 1898: 1,219 ton 0 cwt, 188 wagonloads

March 1898: 1,446 ton 8 cwt, 221 wagonloads

 

Were prices going up in November and back down in March?

[WFPettigrew]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Since I posted, I've got as far as March:

 

That's interesting, if nothing else it suggests that the Nov-Feb inclusive "half the year's demand" idea might be a bit wayward?  

 

Will there be enough pages in the ledger to get you through an entire calendar year?

 

I guess a cold snap in October (easily possible especially back then) and another in March (even more easily possible in the NW - the worst snows we have had in Cumbria in the last 30 years have always been in March) would mess the balance up.... 

 

And as well as the weather in 1897-8, we don't know what the coal supply situation was like - it might be that the dealers of Skipton would have loved to have and extra 20 to 30 wagons in November 97, but they couldn't get hold of them because demand was so steep/the collieries they used were on strike?

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

That's interesting, if nothing else it suggests that the Nov-Feb inclusive "half the year's demand" idea might be a bit wayward?  

 

I can't remember where I got that from, unless I did some adding up I didn't write down. So I don't stand by it.

 

10 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Will there be enough pages in the ledger to get you through an entire calendar year?

 

More than - it runs to 1902, if I recall rightly. But it takes the best part of a day's visit to the Midland Railway Study Centre in Derby to transcribe one month - or at least, that's as much as I can stand at one go. I was making good progress when having to visit Birmingham weekly to check my late father's empty house was still there, for insurance purposes, but since that was sold, not so often. I suppose I could try taking photos and transcribing at home.  

[WFPettigrew]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

So I don't stand by it.

 

Understood. I had a google but couldn't find any month by month coal use stats for the late Vicorian - prewar period so probably best to wait til you can get back to Derby and have the time to collate the rest of the year/several years.

 

Quick sums though - for what it's worth.. 

 

Your latest figures have 798 wagons Nov-Feb, so double that (despite the uncertainty above) and divide by ten gives us ~ 160 wagons/year/1000 population rather than 150 in Skipton.  Add in up to 60 more for the gas works traffic had that come by rail would mean the equation would perhaps better be stated as 200-220 wagons/year/1000 population. 
 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

Browsing Grace's Guide, I've found one of the smaller Skipton customers: William Fawcett, b. c. 1838, in the 1881 census recorded as a master millwright employing 14 men, and in 1894, of Perseverance Ironworks, Cavendish St, Skipton:

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_Fawcett_(of_Skipton)

In the six months October 1897 - March 1898 he received four wagonloads of coal, 32 ton 1 cwt, and five of coke, 31 ton 4 cwt. The coal was from Rothwell (presymably Rothwell Haigh?) and Robin Hood Collieries, Rothwell, both owned by J&J Charlesworth:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/r207.htm

http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/r203.htm

The coke from "Brandon" which I think must be Brandon Colliery in the Durham coalfield, whichcolliery certainly produced coke in its own ovens: 

http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/b012.htm

In the ledger, the originating station being given as Leeds, which was usual for wagons coming off the NER. An oddity is that one of those wagons was a Midland wagon.

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

What was the capacity of a coal barge?)

 

Very roughly up to 30 ton (weight) narrowboat; 60 ton wide barge.

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

.... My Coal Merchant has a 8 ton wagon, but when I worked out the wagon volume and the density of the coal it only carried 7 tons.

This was common. As I've posted before the 'Load x tons' marking only indicated the maximum load the bearings should be subjected to (taking into account the weight of the wagon), not the physical capacity. Coal was lighter than other minerals such as iron ore and stone. 

Jim 

[ChrisN]

If you want to know the weather, here are monthly weather reports.

 

If you are really keen here are daily ones, which is how I know that even after a severe winter of 1894/5 on Thursday 26th March 1895 the Andy Stadden figures who are not wearing coats will not freeze.

[figworthy]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Very roughly up to 30 ton (weight) narrowboat; 60 ton wide barge.

 

Depended very much on the size of the barge.

 

Leeds and Liverpool Short Boats (technically barges) serving Skipton could carry about 40 tons, whereas (for instance) those working up to Sheffield could carry 100 tons.

 

Adrian

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

If you are really keen here are daily ones

 

Oh, keen mode activated!  What a wonderful resource!!  I am going in, I may be some time... 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

If you are really keen here are daily ones, which is how I know that even after a severe winter of 1894/5 on Thursday 26th March 1895 the Andy Stadden figures who are not wearing coats will not freeze.

 

Tuesday 26th or Thursday 28th? Either way, 40°F looks coat-wearingly nippy to me. (Taking the Holyhead readings.)

[ChrisN]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Tuesday 26th or Thursday 28th? Either way, 40°F looks coat-wearingly nippy to me. (Taking the Holyhead readings.)

 

Sorry Thursday 28th.  I cannot remember where exactly I looked at it, but it was the average of two readings and was a bit warmer than that.  It is interesting just how few sites there were in Wales.

[Caley Jim]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Tuesday 26th or Thursday 28th? Either way, 40°F looks coat-wearingly nippy to me. (Taking the Holyhead readings.)

40F is around 4.5C. That's T-shirt and shorts weather! We had -16C one night last winter and back around 2010 it was going down to -23C overnight and never went above 0 for days! 

 

Jim 

[Andy Hayter]

4 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

40F is around 4.5C. That's T-shirt and shorts weather! We had -16C one night last winter and back around 2010 it was going down to -23C overnight and never went above 0 for days! 

 

Jim 

 

You were lucky.   (Time for a Monty P saga.)

 

In 2012 we had daytime high temperatures that were minus double figures for 10 days in a row and the lowest daytime high was just better than -20°C.  The water main feeding the house froze and we were without piped water for 19 days in total.  I was working in Turkey during the week (where it just snowed) and was not flavour of the month with OH.