Castle Aching

[Flying Fox 34F]

On 01/09/2022 at 12:49, Edwardian said:

 

I do have a fall back for thirds and firsts, using the Horny coaches or just bodies.

 

The GWR style commode handles are simple to remove, it's the lack of bolections that is problematic, otherwise the configurations are good for these two classes of coach and I would have no compunction chopping them up for just the sides (everything in the Hattons coaches being so much better):

 

 

 

As your planning to chop these carriages up, why not add the Bolections out of plasticard at the same time?  You could use rectangles of plasticard with the corners rounded off, then cut the window opening back out.  With all the cutting and shutting, you could have larger windows in First Class this way.

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

As your planning to chop these carriages up

 

It will be interesting to see how easily they disassemble, given that they are of modular kit-like construction with separate sides and ends.

[Skinnylinny]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

It will be interesting to see how easily they disassemble, given that they are of modular kit-like construction with separate sides and ends.

An interesting comment - is this referring to the Hornby or Hattons carriages? Having done some carving on one of the Hornby ones, I can assure you that apart from the guard's ends (with the windows) which are moulded in clear plastic, the Hornby carriages definitely have one-piece sides, ends and roof. As for the Hattons ones, the roofs I believe are separate, but I've yet to see anything that suggests they have separate roofs and ends. The duckets, however, do seem to be a separate part. 

This photo of one of the decorated samples of the Hattons carriages strongly suggests to me that the body is one piece... but it *does* include representations of the bolection mouldings!



Edited to add: Are the "Mess" markings to show the intended use of these compartments, or a comment on their general state? 😄

Edited September 3, 2022 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

An interesting comment - is this referring to the Hornby or Hattons carriages? 

 

The Hattons carriages. There are, I think, three end pieces, with steps, with communication cord alarm, and with end windows - the latter eventually only used on the 4-wheel brake third, though it could be used for a coupe compartment, if further designs (e.g. bogie carriages) were to be produced.

[Skinnylinny]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Hattons carriages. There are, I think, three end pieces, with steps, with communication cord alarm, and with end windows - the latter eventually only used on the 4-wheel brake third, though it could be used for a coupe compartment, if further designs (e.g. bogie carriages) were to be produced.

Forgive me, but while the ends might be common in design, I don't think the carriages have separate ends and sides. Another photograph, this time of an unpainted engineering sample, suggests that the body is one piece, comprising floor, walls and ends.



This is further borne out by Jenny Kirk's video:

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Forgive me, but while the ends might be common in design, I don't think the carriages have separate ends and sides. 

 

I've had a quick look at the CAD drawings to which I was privy during the design stages back in early 2020 and you are correct; I was mis-remembering, or had misunderstood at the time. It may have been the original intention that they would be separate.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

So long as the rooves come off, and IIRC they do, I should be OK

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Edwardian
spelling

[Skinnylinny]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've had a quick look at the CAD drawings to which I was privy during the design stages back in early 2020 and you are correct; I was mis-remembering, or had misunderstood at the time. It may have been the original intention that they would be separate.

I suspect the end mould faces may be re-used, with differing sides, but this is pure conjecture based on my (limited, but rapidly growing!) knowledge of how model railway vehicles are manufactured.

[kingfisher9147]

With the carriages, why not buy kits like Slater, ratio, etc or adapt and make your own? I have done that in both 009 and 00 due to nothing being available. 

Mike

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, kingfisher9147 said:

With the carriages, why not buy kits like Slater, ratio, etc or adapt and make your own? I have done that in both 009 and 00 due to nothing being available. 

Mike

 

The majority of the extant WNR coaches represent a succession of styles, 1870s -1880s.

 

For the 1870s-80s, 3D print and some limited kit adaptation are the ways forward.

 

For the 1890s, the kits you mention, plus Hornby 6-wheelers and the old Triang clerestories are possible donors.

 

I prefer the Hattons, however, for three reasons:

 

(i) They are state of the art in prototype fidelity (how coaches were typically constructed and appeared) and in quality and detail;

 

(ii) The style is a perfect fit for me, including no turn-under on the ends (seen, for instance, of the Triangs, Ratio 4-wheelers and Slaters' Midland suburban); and,

 

(iii) They are 6-wheel coaches (the options you mention are not), with the result that (a) most of the coaches are perfect right out of the box, and, (b) even where considering conversions, I have the benefit of a detailed, working RTR 6-wheel chassis, roof, etc. In short, if I am cutting and shutting, Hattons should prove the best start for me.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Notwithstanding James' stated preference for flat ends, I'll slip in a mention of the Slater's Midland 6-wheelers, which have recently been re-released in 4 mm scale:

https://www.slatersplastikard.com/carriages/4mmCarriages.php. 

[Edwardian]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Notwithstanding James' stated preference for flat ends, I'll slip in a mention of the Slater's Midland 6-wheelers, which have recently been re-released in 4 mm scale:

https://www.slatersplastikard.com/carriages/4mmCarriages.php. 

 

Great news, I need some for the MGN train

 

EDIT: Preference for flat ends is for the WNR, mainly to contrast with the GER stock.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Edwardian

[Schooner]

Sorry sorry, more cross-cutting layout chat!

 

Enjoying coach-bants though, making me a bit sad to have a goods-only layout!

 

On 02/09/2022 at 07:18, Edwardian said:

Isn't it really about capacity for storing cassettes rather than the number of roads?

 

I would assume (again, I need to stress I'm a novice at all this and hope those with practical experience will weigh in!) that it's really about how often you're willing to stop what you're doing, break character, walk the 30' round from CA to the fiddle area, muck about with cassettes, walk back and settle back into the world of the WNR again...and then trying to get that out of the available space. For me, the only answer is 'as rarely as possible'! 

 

As for cassette storage, is that a concern? Is there not space for shelves below (or ahove) the layout in the appropriate areas...?

 

On 02/09/2022 at 07:18, Edwardian said:

I don't fancy being slave to a fast clock

Quite right too! 

 

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

My thanks again to Schooner

Not at all, thanks for letting me cut my teeth on your baby! 

 

 ...erm...so to speak...

 

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Are we happy with this, then?

More to the point: are you? 

 

We will all look at the plan and spot areas of potential improvement. If those could be shared, that'd be dead handy... :) 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Schooner

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

As your planning to chop these carriages up, why not add the Bolections out of plasticard at the same time?  You could use rectangles of plasticard with the corners rounded off, then cut the window opening back out.  With all the cutting and shutting, you could have larger windows in First Class this way.

 

Paul

Or make them with a Silhouette cutter or similar?

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

I would assume (again, I need to stress I'm a novice at all this and hope those with practical experience will weigh in!) that it's really about how often you're willing to stop what you're doing, break character, walk the 30' round from CA to the fiddle area, muck about with cassettes, walk back and settle back into the world of the WNR again...and then trying to get that out of the available space. For me, the only answer is 'as rarely as possible'! 

 

As one novice to another, then ....

 

I would love not to have a break in visual continuity at this point -0 the run between CA and BM - and a scenic fiddle yard would be less jarring.

 

I concluded that cassettes were essential, however, for two reasons:

 

(1) Locos all need to be turned here. Doing that within a separate cassette seemed a good way, avoiding handling or a TT on the layout, for which there would be no space.  Of course, the problem of coupling and uncoupling while locos and trains are in cassettes arises.

 

(2) There could never be enough sidings in a fiddle yard. I'd need 10-12 plus 2 continuous running lines, I wouldn't have either the length or width for that.

 

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

As for cassette storage, is that a concern? Is there not space for shelves below (or ahove) the layout in the appropriate areas...?

 

 

Precisely my point. Sure this means that in the yard I'd need no more than one or two lines leading to and from cassette spaces?

 

 

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

We will all look at the plan and spot areas of potential improvement. If those could be shared, that'd be dead handy... :) 

 

Everything is best shared, I think, as the input of the Parish is invaluable.

 

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Or make them with a Silhouette cutter or similar?

 

I was actually thinking of styrene strip placed end on.

 

[Donw]

The Hattons coaches look good to me I would suggest you could make up a rake or very simply any cut and shut work could be done later to produce particular designs at least they would get you underway. 

 

On the cassettes  .I for one would be quite happy to set up a couple of cassettes run the trains out to their destinations and run some back to cassettes. You then go round and change them over the break in operations while you do this helps to slow operations down. These are country lines not major routes.  The storage needs careful design so you can get the cassette you want without moving too many others. 

Uncoupling and coupling the locos will be a bit of a fag. If I was doing it I might look to using Linc-ups on the ends of rakes and locos because my dexterity is not as good these days. These allow the three links to be retained and a vehicle can be lifted clear without uncoupling the Linc-up. I would try with the three links (well actually screw links on coaches and locos) first. 

 

Don

 

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, Donw said:

The Hattons coaches look good to me I would suggest you could make up a rake or very simply any cut and shut work could be done later to produce particular designs at least they would get you underway. 

 

On the cassettes  .I for one would be quite happy to set up a couple of cassettes run the trains out to their destinations and run some back to cassettes. You then go round and change them over the break in operations while you do this helps to slow operations down. These are country lines not major routes.  The storage needs careful design so you can get the cassette you want without moving too many others. 

Uncoupling and coupling the locos will be a bit of a fag. If I was doing it I might look to using Linc-ups on the ends of rakes and locos because my dexterity is not as good these days. These allow the three links to be retained and a vehicle can be lifted clear without uncoupling the Linc-up. I would try with the three links (well actually screw links on coaches and locos) first. 

 

Don

 

 

Sounds good.

 

But what's a linc-up coupling and where can I find the gen on it please?

[Donw]

I cannot find a good image on the web. There was some good stuff on the old guild manual the online version has a rather poor photo. Some useful info in Ian Rice;s book on Cameo Layouts. Being sat in the motorhome with all our stuff in store I haven't access to my stuff. The coupling is two simple hooks which when pulled down curve away from each other. There is no delay action but uncoupling can be effected simply with a cocktail stick if away from an uncoupling magnet. You can also lift a vehicle out of a train with no problems. Will find some pictures if I can.

 

Don

 

Don

[Nick Holliday]

13 minutes ago, Donw said:

I cannot find a good image on the web. There was some good stuff on the old guild manual the online version has a rather poor photo. Some useful info in Ian Rice;s book on Cameo Layouts. Being sat in the motorhome with all our stuff in store I haven't access to my stuff. The coupling is two simple hooks which when pulled down curve away from each other. There is no delay action but uncoupling can be effected simply with a cocktail stick if away from an uncoupling magnet. You can also lift a vehicle out of a train with no problems. Will find some pictures if I can.

 

Don

 

Don

Are we talking about the Lincs Autocoupler?  Discussed on RMweb around seven years ago, but not mentioned since.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

I cannot find a good image on the web. There was some good stuff on the old guild manual the online version has a rather poor photo. Some useful info in Ian Rice;s book on Cameo Layouts. Being sat in the motorhome with all our stuff in store I haven't access to my stuff. The coupling is two simple hooks which when pulled down curve away from each other. There is no delay action but uncoupling can be effected simply with a cocktail stick if away from an uncoupling magnet. You can also lift a vehicle out of a train with no problems. Will find some pictures if I can.

 

Don

 

Don

 

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Are we talking about the Lincs Autocoupler?  Discussed on RMweb around seven years ago, but not mentioned since.

 

These?

Of course, any pictures have been lost in the Great RMWeb Image Purge.

 

The new manufacturer recommended this electro-magnet for use with the system, which, of course, immediately had me panicking.

 

Dave Long has posted some pictures of the coupler. Not sure what to make of them.

 

There is an explanation, which, of course, I could not understand, and an interesting survey of the bewildering range of ingenious-but-not-quite-perfect coupling systems that the wit of man has devised over the centuries here. Ignore all the weird stuff at the beginning about blue stars and orange squares and DMUs. I dare not think what all that is about. Urgh.

 

Of course, 2010 was a long time ago, so I do not know if they are still in production. I think there is an email contact but nothing else. Is this a rabbit hole I can afford to go down, I wonder, and how could I use them with cassettes*, given the need for an electro-magnet**?

 

* Based on Don's comments, they can be manually uncoupled without magnets.  Thought you'd want those in the station. Could the loco in cassette just be lifted away?

** Heavens, that's playing with two invisible magical forces I do not understand!!!

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Edwardian
Further thoughts

[CKPR]

I'm sitting in our caravan near Beadnell Bay so I'm doing this from memory, but I recall an article in Model Railways c. 1976-77 called something like "Link up with Lincup" that was a highly technical exposition of the Lincs Coupling. 

[Edwardian]

Proposed WNR livery scheme as applied to a saddle tank:

 

[Edwardian]

Regarding the above livery sketch, I have found it useful in order to fine tune the treatment of certain areas within the parameters of the intended livery scheme and, of course, it is important to see if the overall impression looks OK in reality, not just in the mind's eye.

 

I think I will try this on a drawing of one of the standard tender classes, again, for the above two reasons.

 

Overall, I'm pretty happy with how this livery appears. It is a complex livery, deliberately so. I wanted that high Victorian feel and I wanted it to contrast with the simpler liveries of Light Railways of the period because the WNR is an old railway (1850s) and a mainline railway (albeit a very small one relatively speaking) and would have made a bit of a show. By 1905 it has yet to adopt a simpler livery, a process that began, but was not completed or universally adopted, in the 1900s and 1910s.  

 

The complexity, of course, causes problems. 

 

There are, I would say, two distinct challenges here (1) getting it drawn; and, (2) getting it printed.

 

I have long assumed that this livery would probably require a professional printing service because the resolution and registration will have to be good.

 

A third challenge might be considered application, however, compared with other decals I have used, I don't see these as being inherently more difficult to apply. As ever it is the straight lines that will be the most difficult. The smaller panels, including distance lies, can be a single transfer, with transparent sections laid over the green area in the centre. 

 

Using gloss varnish as the base (which hides the carrier film) and using decal-fix type fluid to help move and fix, ought to make these transfers as hard or easy as any other water-slide transfer I've used, say, on aircraft kits. Multiple sets to provide for failures might be wise, however!

 

Those are just my inexpert musings, however, so if anyone has any technical observations or contacts for a suitable printing service, that would be helpful at this point.

[Edwardian]

This becomes compulsive ....

 

[Compound2632]

Is that a light green panel on either side of the saddle tank, or is it intended to be a single panel, i.e. the top of the tank light green? Or to put it another way, what colour is the dome?