Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

Here we go again ....

 

Here is a comparison between the Hattons and Hornby 6-wheelers. Both manufacturers have gone for a standard 32' at scale body length. The Hattons GW coaches are oil-lit, I will be using the gas-lit versions for the WNR.

 

(1) 4-Compartment coach. For Hornby we have a NBR livery version, labelled as an All First, and the Hattons, in GWR livery, lettered as a Lav. Comp.

 

 

(2) 5-Compartment coach. For Hornby we have a NBR livery version, labelled as an All Third, and the Hattons, in GWR livery, lettered as an All Second

 

 

Now, I have said that I do not think the 5-compartment Hattons coach is suitable for an All Third. For me it would make a better All Second in WNR terms. The Hornby version is no better; it's also a 32' 5-compartment coach.

 

If I used the Hattons 5-compartment coach as an All Second, I would need:

 

(1) An All First. I think Hornby's 4-compartment coach is a good option here.  Unfortunately the height of the waist is not exactly the same, but it is still reasonably close. There would need to be some upgrades so that the Hornby coach could pass muster:

 

- I would re-mount the Hornby body on a Hattons chassis. The Hattons chassis is superior to Hornby's, and this way the u/fs would match.   

- Gas parts from a spare Hattons roof and commode handles from a spare Hattons body would be used to upgrade the Hornby coach and aid uniformity. 

- Bolections would somehow need to be added. I am currently favouring the idea of a thin strip of styrene mounted edge on to the window. 

 

(2) For All Thirds, I would produce a shorter 5-compartment coach or a longer 6-compartment coach. This not going to b as simple as I had assumed, however. 

 

So here is the very weird thing:

 

- The length of the Hattons 5-compartment 4-wheel coach is 27'6" at scale; but, 

- A 5-compartment coach made using the compartments from a Hattons 6-wheel Brake is at scale 26' 7/8".  Shorter.  This is despite the blind panels on the 6-wheeler being slightly wider than on the 4-wheeler.  The reason is that the quarter lights are significantly wider on the 4-wheel version.

 

 

 

However, the compartment width on the 4-wheel version is still too narrow to allow a 5-compartment 6-wheel coach of a sensible length. So it looks like I'll be going for the 6-compartment version after all. It looks like Stephen was right, the compartment width for the Hattons Brake Third is a little narrow, certainly for a mainline Third, but the compartment spacing on the 5-compartment 6-wheel coach is still too wide and better suited to a Second in WNR terms.  

 

The best I can do is to join two Brake Third compartment ends together to form a 6-compartment Third. Guess how long that looks like being, according to my measurements?

 

32'

 

Yep, so why Hattons did not do a 6-compartment Third in the 6-wheel range is beyond me.

 

I'd prefer a sub-32' 5-comparment Third with wider compartments, but that's impossible with the Hattons tooling unless I undertake very significant surgery.  The only way to do this I think would be to take out a 1mm slither from between each compartment on the Hattons 5-compartment 6-wheel coach. That would be very difficult to make good, but would result in a 31' 5-compartment All Third, which would be ideal. 

 

(3) A 4-compartment Luggage Composite. I'm still very keen on making up  these, as a pair could run in lieu of a First and a Second. I estimate that taking out the lav. window and the blind panel to each side and substituting a double luggage door would get me a 31' coach.

 

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Yep, so why Hattons did not do a 6-compartment Third in the 6-wheel range is beyond me.

 

Because some blithering know-it-all told them very firmly that the five-compartment third was the bog standard 6-wheeler, ubiquitous on all but the most parsimonious lines. And they were wedded to the 32 ft length. Of course for same blithering know-it-all, the Platonic ideal of a carriage is a Midland D493 5-compartment third, 31 ft over end panels, with compartments 6 ft between partitions. A 32 ft third would have slightly more generous compartments - the North Eastern ones are an example - but I glean that for the WNR you want a sub-6 ft knee-locker, in the 28 ft - 30 ft range.

 

I tried to get them to shift on the compartment widths in the 6-wheel third brake but they were unresponsive to my logic.

[ChrisN]

The Cambrian had 5 compartment six wheel thirds, at both 28ft and then later at 32ft.  Passengers were theirmain source of income rather than freight, so they may have been wanting to be more generous, especially as they had had 5 compartment thirds and four compartment seconds at 22' 6". 

[Edwardian]

I have now pulled one of the Hattons coaches apart for the purpose of assessing conversion possibilities further. 

 

Here is the Hornby body I would need to represent an All First perched on the Hattons chassis.

 

That's only 16 bolections to somehow fashion!

 

 

So, I was wrong, the headstocks form part of the chassis. On the whole I think this is a good thing, because it means that the Hornby coach above and the 3D-printed 1880s bodies will all share the same headstocks complete with buffers.

 

 

The body is a box.  Whereas the Hornby body has no floor, it's open at the bottom and the rather crude interior moulding is separate and pushed up through the body, the Hattons body has a floor moulded with the sides and ends. 

 

 

 

The roof:

 

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

So, compartment widths ...

 

Stephen rightly points out that the NER*, as well as the MR, were quite generous with Third Class. I have looked at some GER and GWR examples so far, so a very non-exhaustive sample, to see what compartment widths these companies felt acceptable for the period.

 

So, what should I be aiming for, for 1880s-built WNR coaches?

 

First, how do the Hattons stack up?

 

Well, my measurements give me three compartment widths for the 6-wheelers are: 

 

- 27mm for the 4-compt.

- 25.5mm for the 5-compt.

- 21mm for the Brake Third

 

Well, based on GW examples, a partition might take up 1 1/4"

 

- 27mm = 6' 9", so 6' 7 3/4".  That will do for First

- 25.5mm = 6' 4 1/2", so 6' 3 1/4".  That is too generous for a Third by GW, GE or, I suggest, WN standards and I suggest this better for a Second. 

- 21mm = 5' 3", so a truly knee-knocking 5' 1 3/4". 

 

Even a GW branch line 4-wheeler will give you 5' 5" in Third. You'd need to be in a suburban GW Metro 4-wheeler to do worse. A Third Class compartment in a WNR mainline 6-wheeler needs to be wider. 

 

I bear in mind that generally the WNR will not be the most generous in terms of accommodation, but will be building to mainline standards, not branch line or inner suburban, and that their 1880s coaches ought to be less, or no more, generous, than the Hattons standard that represent the WNR's 1890s coaches (with the exception of the Third Class compartments in the 6-wheel Brake Third, which must remain unique to that vehicle!).

 

Next I looked at the GER.  Measuring off David Eveleigh's etches of Holden Type 5 mainline 6-wheel coaches (1886-1896), I derived the following:

 

- First 27mm = 6' 9", so 6' 7 3/4" assuming a 1 1/4" partition.

  
- Third 22.5mm =  5' 7 1/2", so 5' 6 1/4"

 

Looking on the GERS site, I see:

 

- a Type 6 (1896-1897) First at 6' 10 1/2" 

 

- a Type 7A (1897-1903) Third at 5' 11"

 

My problems with the designs for the WNR 1880s coaches are:

 

-  I reckon that 30' is the shortest I can make the Hattons chassis for three reasons:

 

(i) I think that is as short as I can make it without complex surgery;

 

(ii) Any shorter and the 10' 6" + 10' 6" wheelbase would look absurd.

 

(iii) I doubt I could use the footboards supplied.

 

Thus, GW-style 28' 6-wheelers are out. 

 

- I am struggling to make up a 5-compartment Third that is at least 30' long.   If we added 1.25mm to each end to represent the thickness of the coach ends and then had compartments measuring 23.5mm, we do get to 120mm, 30'.  This means an 1880s Third Class compartment of 23.5mm = 5' 10 1/2", so 5' 9 1/4" with partition.

 

So, a 5' 9 1/4" Third Class compartment for the WNR in the 1880s? More generous than contemporary GW or GE. 

 

- I am struggling to get a 4-compartment First/Second Luggage Composite down to 31'.  I don't want to go up to the 32' maximum, because if I make the Hattons Lav. Comp into a Luggage Comp, I think I will be shortening it and the 1880s versions shouldn't be longer than the 1890s version.

 

I probably need to look at many more examples, although I do not have great access to my books at present.

 

Any contributions welcome, as the 1870s MC&WCo 4-wheeler designs will be finished soon, so I'll need to brief the designer on the 1880s 'missing link'. . 

 

* In the early 1880s, the NER will give you a 7' First and a 6' Second and 6' Third.  

 

 

[ChrisN]

MSLR, not sure how late had 6ft third class, and 7ft First Class compartments, according to a source now deleted on the internet, but coaches built in the mid 1880s, had 6ft Thirds and 7' 8" Firsts.  (Taken from a First/Third Composite, two of each, 32ft body length.)

 

I thought I had more information on other companies, but I seem not to have.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

MSLR, not sure how late had 6ft third class, and 7ft First Class compartments, according to a source now deleted on the internet, but coaches built in the mid 1880s, had 6ft Thirds and 7' 8" Firsts.  (Taken from a First/Third Composite, two of each, 32ft body length.)

 

I thought I had more information on other companies, but I seem not to have.

 

I have found my Brighton book. The Billinton coaches are 1890s, but notice that the Hornby 4-compartment 6-wheel coach is a exact match for the D70 mainline First, save for the lack of bolections, of course. The waist height of the Hornby coaches is different from the Hattons, and is a match for the Brighton coaches (because Hornby based them on Stroudleys).

 

 

Including the partitions, the compartment spacing is: 7' 11 1/4"

 

Ditto the 5-compartment Hornby coach for the D73 mainline Second.

 

 

Including the partitions, the compartment spacing is: 6' 3 7/8"

 

Anyway, there was a Billinton 30' 5-compartment mainline Third (D74).

 

Including the partitions, the compartment spacing is: 5' 11".

 

I note that the wheelbase is reduced.  Whereas the Brighton 32' coaches have the same 10' 6" + 10' 6" wheelbase of the Hattons and Hornby coaches, the 30' coach has a wheelbase of 9' 9" + 9' 9" for the wooden u/f version and 10' + 10' for the steel u/f version.

 

Turning to the LSWR, we have:

 

- A 6-compartment 34' Third of 1882 with 5' 6" compartments.  The w/b is 10' + 10'.

 

- A 5-compartment 30' Third of 1886-1890 with I'd estimate 5' 11" spacing inclusive of partition.  The w/b is 10' + 10'.

 

- A 4-compartment 30' First of 1890 with an estimated 7' 4 1/2" spacing inclusive of partition.  The w/b is 10' + 10'.

 

- A 5-compartment 31' Block Set Second of 1900 with an estimated 6' 1 1/2" spacing inclusive of partition.  The w/b is 10' + 10'.

 

EDIT: So, I think I've identified a good way to make more Brighton coaches, rather than advancing Castle Aching.

 

If you add bolections, the Hornby coaches get you the following Billinton 6-wheel types: D70 All First, D71 First-Second Lav. Comp, D73 All Second, and D93 Brake Second. The latter needs waist beading adding over the luggage section, but is otherwise good. 

 

What you'll struggle for is a way to make the matching Third (30' D74) and Brake Third (30' D75) coaches.  If I could add, say, two Thirds and a Brake Third, I'd have a very pleasant 7-coach train for my Bachmann E4 to pull.  They'd look awesome in umber and white. 

 

It's the same problem that the WNR faces. Neither the Hornby nor the Hattons range have a compartment suitable for a mainline Third. These are either branch line or suburban knee-knockers for the shortest compartments or something better suited to a Second for the next longest.  What I need is something longer than 5' 5" but shorter than 6'.  

 

The nearest I can get is the passenger compartment of the old Traing clerestory brake coach. Kipper 5 compartments together and you are a little shy of 30' / 120mm, but it's the closest I've found. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Edwardian

[Caley Jim]

As far as the CR was concerned, a drawing of a Metropolitan built 4w 5 compt. 3rd of 1874 has 5'1¾" between partitions, while a 6w 5 compt. 1st from the same manufacturer has 6'0½" between partitions.

By 1883 Drummond designed 4w  5 compt. 3rds had 5'6¾" and matching 4 compt. 1sts 6'11½", both in a 28'6" body.

6W stock, 35'6½" over body, had 5'9 7/16" for 6 compt. 3rd and 6'11 3/8" for 5 compt. 1st.

 

Jim

 

[Edwardian]

So, I have concluded that there are no donor coaches or coach sides that are suitable for the sort of  5' 7" to 5' 11' Third Class compartment.  This is a problem for both freelance coaches (the WNR) and prototype conversions (LB&SCR).

 

Where this leaves me, I think, is needing to cut down the All Seconds by removing, say, 2mm from between each compartments to produce 30' 5- compartment Thirds. This would be messy and perhaps impossible to make good to an adequate standard. I would have to do this to the Hattons for WNR coaches. The box moulding of the Hattons coaches only makes this harder. 

 

Additionally, I suspect that for a 30' coach I would need a 10' + 10' or 9' 9" + 9' 9" w/b in order to conform to prototype practice. This means that I would need to take out 4mm either side of the centre axle. That sounds like fun.

 

So, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it might be is worth asking my CAD guy to design a 30' body to match the Hattons style, or, perhaps, just sides. 

 

[Edwardian]

Double-ended hand drill for opening up axle box journals?

 

I recall from magazine reviews of some years ago that there are one or two suppliers who make this handing tool.

 

As I recall it's a twist drill that allows one to drill out opposite axle box journals from the position of the axle, thus allowing parallel and aligned holes to be opened up.

 

I cannot for the life of me recall or find who it is who produces this.

 

Any help gratefully received.

 

Thanks

[westerhamstation]

Might be this that you are thinking of.

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/RTR Drill.pdf

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/bearing-reamers-set-of-two-ho/

Edited September 26, 2022 by westerhamstation

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Double-ended hand drill for opening up axle box journals?

 

I recall from magazine reviews of some years ago that there are one or two suppliers who make this handing tool.

 

As I recall it's a twist drill that allows one to drill out opposite axle box journals from the position of the axle, thus allowing parallel and aligned holes to be opened up.

 

I cannot for the life of me recall or find who it is who produces this.

 

Any help gratefully received.

 

Thanks

 

James,

It is called a Pin Vice, here is one from Hobbycraft.  They do vary.  I have two.  Both will take down to 0.1mm but only one will take up to 1/8th inch.

 

Mine looks like this.  I thought I got mine from Eileen's Emporium or somewhere train model shoppy, probably at an exhibition. 

[Annie]

1 minute ago, ChrisN said:

 

James,

It is called a Pin Vice, here is one from Hobbycraft.  They do vary.  I have two.  Both will take down to 0.1mm but only one will take up to 1/8th inch.

 

Mine looks like this.  I thought I got mine from Eileen's Emporium or somewhere train model shoppy, probably at an exhibition. 

I think James is looking for a double ended cutting/reaming tool that will fit between the plastic axleguard/axlebox mouldings on RTR rollingstock.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

I think James is looking for a double ended cutting/reaming tool that will fit between the plastic axleguard/axlebox mouldings on RTR rollingstock.

 

Indeed, and here it is:

 

 

[jcredfer]

Westerham Station [4 posts back]  got it right with the links to 2 x suppliers.  If you get the DCC Concepts version, it has 2 x double-ended, drills in the pack.  They press into the bogie frame in the same way as wagon wheel axles, then twisting them reams out the bearing in line with the actual axle.

 

 

[Edwardian]

This is what I think the WNR needs for its Third Class mainline coaches, a 30' 5-compartment coach.

  

 

This is a Billinton LB&SCR design from 1891.

 

I am minded to have sides drawn up representing such a coach in the same style as the Hattons coaches (there are subtle difference in the panel dimensions). 

 

I would have the same type drawn up as a full body as one of the 1880s coaches. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

I see @Worsdell forever's "The Depots, Rosedale East" is at Darlington this weekend. I hope you are going! I drove past Darlington this morning, bringing No. 1 Son back from Durham at the end of his Masters - or at least, the end of his tenancy. Why are all these interesting northern places so far away?

[Worsdell forever]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I see @Worsdell forever's "The Depots, Rosedale East" is at Darlington this weekend. I hope you are going! I drove past Darlington this morning, bringing No. 1 Son back from Durham at the end of his Masters - or at least, the end of his tenancy. Why are all these interesting northern places so far away?

 

More to the point, why aren't you picking him up tomorrow? 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

More to the point, why aren't you picking him up tomorrow? 

 

I know, it's frustrating. His tenancy ended on the last day of September.

[Edwardian]

Gentlemen,

 

I've not be greatly involved at all with the show this year, and I was in the Smoke yesterday evening, so only made it back in time to put in a couple of hours on the set up this afternoon.

 

Once Miss T is picked up from school at lunchtime tomorrow, I'll head into Darlo and will be helping out if and when needed.

 

Looking forward to renewing my acquaintance with Paul and his wonderful Rosedale. 

 

The following weekend it's the Shildon show.

 

All the interesting places are in the North!

 

 

[Worsdell forever]

 

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I know, it's frustrating. His tenancy ended on the last day of September.

 

We have hotels up here you know...

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Worsdell forever said:

We have hotels up here you know...

 

Am aware - was in the Durham East Premier Inn on Thursday night - middle of an industrial estate!

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

All the interesting places are in the North!

 

Hmmmmmm

The BBC have just been re-running "Our Friends in the North" on BBC4....

 

[drmditch]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Am aware - was in the Durham East Premier Inn on Thursday night - middle of an industrial estate!

Glad to hear we still have industrial estates..... for the moment anyway.

 

Actually, the city does seem to be full of new hotels, but I've no idea how much they charge. We have moved on from the high and far off times when there was only the County and the Three Tuns.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Glad to hear we still have industrial estates..... for the moment anyway.

 

Actually, the city does seem to be full of new hotels, but I've no idea how much they charge. We have moved on from the high and far off times when there was only the County and the Three Tuns.

 

Like for like (Premier inns) £14 less on the Belmont Industrial Estate than on Walkergate!