Castle Aching

[Donw]

I thought this might give a date but doesn't however it does make for interesting reading on manure as a load. The term dog pures amuses me. Should it really have a value I could be quids in by the amount I have to pick up from our dogs. 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-min.htm

[ChrisN]

I thought this might give a date but doesn't however it does make for interesting reading on manure as a load. The term dog pures amuses me. Should it really have a value I could be quids in by the amount I have to pick up from our dogs. 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-min.htm

 

The poor and old in London in the 1850s and probably later as well used to collect 'pure' as it was the only work they could do to make a living.

[runs as required]

Thetre was a plumber in the south end of Liverpool (up in the tract known as 'The Holy City' between Park Road and Mill Street) who had a hand cart in the 1950s bearing the slogan "it might be sh*t to you, it's bread and butter to me"

dh

[Nearholmer]

I recommend a tour of the caves in central Nottingham. Includes lots of utterly stomach-churning detail of the use of pure in the leather-tanning trade. There were lots of tanning vats, and therefore lots of pure, in the caves in pre-industrial times.

 

Anyway, I'm still, just about, enjoying my breakfast.

 

K

[Edwardian]

Well, I enjoy New Augustan literature, with its p1ss-pots and scatological humour, as much as the next man, but I fear that Castle Aching must by now be in danger of being mired, perhaps subsumed entirely, in the flow of pungent substances of one kind or another!

 

I think that the gentle, essentially whimsical, nature of Castle Aching might be satisfied by a mild visual joke along the lines of a Norfolk Fish Oil & Guano Co. Ld. rectangular tank wagon.  I do not have the Touret volume on PO wagons in which the prototype appears, and I will apply to Caley Jim for details.  Provided, however, the wagon is old enough and I can obtain some basic dimensions, in particular wheelbase, I am minded to have a stab at producing an approximation of this vehicle (or at least get rather closer to it than Dapol!).

Edited May 4, 2016 by Edwardian

[The Stationmaster]

Well, I enjoy New Augustan literature, with its p1ss-pots and scatological humour, as much as the next man, but I fear that Castle Aching must by now be in danger of being mired, perhaps subsumed entirely, in the flow of pungent substances of one kind or another!

 

I think that the gentle, essentially whimsical, nature of Castle Aching might be satisfied by a mild visual joke along the lines of a Norfolk Fish Oil & Guano Co. Ld. rectangular tank wagon.  I do not have the Touret volume on PO wagons in which the prototype appears, and I will apply to Caley Jim for details.  Provided, however, the wagon is old enough and I can obtain some basic dimensions, in particular wheelbase, I am minded to have a stab at producing an approximation of this vehicle (or at least get rather closer to it than Dapol!).

 

That wagon certainly looks old enough - grease axleboxes and brakes (breaks?)/brake lever on one side definitely put it in the Pre-Grouping category.

[Edwardian]

That wagon certainly looks old enough - grease axleboxes and brakes (breaks?)/brake lever on one side definitely put it in the Pre-Grouping category.

 

An online search for the company shows proposals for sidings at its factory dating from 1905.  It would be nice to think that the wagon is at least as old as this planned facility.

[Edwardian]

Thanks to Caley Jim for the very helpful PM.  We are assuming c.1900 for the wagon, so fine for my purposes.

 

I owe everyone here a lot, and not just for the supportive comments, advice and information.  I have also received practical assistance with rolling stock information and plans, building plans, photoshop work and excellent and usable photographs to help with the buildings.

 

I am grateful to you all.  In many cases, apart from shortage of time, a shortage of materials prevents me from acting on this assistance at present, but I will do what I can.

 

I have produced a carstone texture sheet pdf, for example, which I hope when printed out will prove suitable for the station building. 

[Edwardian]

Trevor Nunn used a thin layer of DAS, stuck to a plywood or foamoard shell with PVA, scribed it, then painted it with powder paints, to create his carstone.

 Thank you, Simon.

 

Part of the object of this first layout was to see what could be achieved with card and paper, and this should, in theory, aid consistency of appearance.  Embossed plastic card and scribing are things for the future, I feel.

 

With this in mind I thought to create my own printed texture sheet for carstone.  It remains to be seen how it will look once printed and applied.

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm....... I can certainly see two, perhaps three, faces: The Angry Imp; The Smiling Tyranosaur; and, possibly another.

 

The human mind is far too good at finding faces in things, presumably because, zillions of years ago, evolution "selected out" those who didn't spot beasts lurking in the bushes.

 

Not wishing to sound unkind, it really doesn't look hugely how I remember carr stone, although I fully acknowdge that it is used in multiple different ways, and I may be remembering only one of those.

 

The abiding impression that it made on me was:

 

- relatively small stones, maybe 12-18" long by 4-6" high;

 

- either roughly-coursed, or laid in a sort of herringbone pattern;

 

- greenish-gingery-brown colour.

 

Unhelpful suggestion: what about a close-up photo of the fabric of a Norfolk jacket?

 

Slightly helpful suggestion: scribing into Das or similar, then using that to create a master for casting in dental-plaster. It works a treat, and I used this approach to create about 6ft of harbour wall in H0.

 

Another suggestion: buy a sheet of the nearest stone-paper you can get, e.g. From Freestone Models, then scan, re-size and re-colour.

 

K

Edited May 5, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

On an A4 sheet, repeating patterns are obvious.  I find this true of a number of proprietary brick papers, which are obviously made from a repeated image of real brick-work, in the same way as my sheet. Areas between doors, windows and other interruptions are relatively small, so I have not yet found repeating patterns to be a problem.  But the proof of this particular pudding ....

 

In any case, this is a photograph of the pdf on screen, so not the best picture.  I have not been able to print it out.  The sheet may need redoing with the images lightened, or, it may not. I am pretty happy with the colour enhancement and the scaling, but this will be trial and error and I won't know until it's printed.  It could be a complete failure, of course!

 

I had only one, small, area of carstone wall, photographed in fairly indifferent light, to work from, but I do not despair of it proving adequate.

 

I am open to Simon's suggestion of trying to add relief to the texture sheet, but my view is firmly that I should stick to the printed medium and if flint did not need relief, I am not convinced that the carstone does.

 

Kevin, carstone is used in a number of different ways.  There is, I gather, Small Carr, which tends to be darker and browner, which is, I suspect, what I am dealing with, and Big Carr, which tends to be a more yellow-ironstone shade.  

 

Big Carr is used in small blocks and was employed either un-coursed, what I think Americans might know as "fieldstone", or coursed.  Coursed carstone might have galleting (small dark flints or pebbles set in the morar courses).

 

I have seen Small Carr in small stone courses, but in Victorian buildings in the Hilington-Flitcham-Sandringham area, it seems to take the form of thin slivers in a coarse horizontal pattern and used as an infill between masonry quoins, much in the way of flint.  From what I can tell from photographs, this style of carstone is found in a number of buildings in Downham Market, notably the station.

 

 

 

[runs as required]

is this any good to you: the coursed variety ?

 

dh

 

PS

just seen your reference to Downham Market station - I've a pic of that somewhere but have to go out now

Will look later.

Edited May 5, 2016 by runs as required

[Edwardian]

is this any good to you: the coursed variety ?

carstone.jpg

 

dh

 

PS

just seen your reference to Downham Market station - I've a pic of that somewhere but have to go out now

Will look later.

 

Yes, thank you, great for the coursed variety.  Here is what I had to use for my texture sheet:

[Donw]

Seeing how well your other building came out I suspect this may prove to be much better in use than the sheet appears.

 

I personally quite enjoyed using DAS onto ply. It has the advantage of being easy to vary the size of blocks to suit the model. This is my bridge as yet unpainted it would need colouring to represent carstone. Something you perhaps seek to avoid.

 

Don

[runs as required]

I personally quite enjoyed using DAS onto ply. It has the advantage of being easy to vary the size of blocks to suit the model. This is my bridge as yet unpainted it would need colouring to represent carstone. Something you perhaps seek to avoid

 

I do agree with you about the effectiveness of this DAS technique.

However I do think that it is incredibly difficult to maintain the rigour of a particular masonry technique - random rubble/snecked/rusticated (coursed or uncoursed) etc. in a particular stone (granite/slates/sandstones/limestones(from mountain down to soft oolitic) over a large structure.

Also the small scale of flint (whole or knapped) and rubble carstone at 4mm/foot scale would presumable require the fabrication of some kind of repetitive stamp type dye.

 

Here is something I've just learnt the name(s) and enjoyed the wide varieties of: galleting  (note the photo of it in Downham Market)

Moreover here is the 'official website' of Galleting.

I'm familiar with its usage also in a lot of hard stone areas in the south west, Wales and the north west of the British Isles where the masons have been allowed a lot of time to 'garnet' their walling.

All thanks to Googling up details discussed in this wayward thread.

Have Fun.

 

dh

[runs as required]

Here is a go at i:76 rubble carstone with an application to Downham Market station

Not sure if it gets reproduced in the post at the size it was saved - hence the drawn scale.

 

dh

Edited May 5, 2016 by runs as required

[Nearholmer]

Ah, that looks like what I remember. See the resemblance to certain tweeds?

 

K

Edited May 5, 2016 by Nearholmer

[uax6]

I would say that it needs to be a bit browner for Downham...

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Here is a go at i:76 rubble carstone with an application to Downham Market station

4mm scale rubble carstone.jpg

Not sure if it gets reproduced in the post at the size it was saved - hence the drawn scale.

 

dh

 

Excellent, David, thanks.  Here it is as a compete texture sheet 

[runs as required]

I would say that it needs to be a bit browner for Downham...

 

Andy G

I agree

Here is a revised  version of Downham Market with the browner coursed carstone slips. I 've cloned them from DM station at slightly over scale since the original size read as a brown slurry at 4mm scale.

Edited May 5, 2016 by runs as required

[mullie]

The problem with carstone to me seems to be that it is so variable, often different on two buildings close together. I like your efforts so far, looks promising. 

[Northroader]

Just got back from a trip out, (canvey island), and trying to remember how the downham market station was done. I think it was made in small slabs, rather than pebbles, and the cement infill wasn't that obvious, the effect was layered, rather like drystone walling in miniature. Very much an umber shade, but now we're off on to another job altogether.

[ChrisN]

I would say that it needs to be a bit browner for Downham...

 

Andy G

 

Anyone would think you lived in Downham Market! 

[uax6]

That looks the right shade now.

 

Indeed Downham station is made of 'strips' of carrstone, with the mortar at the rear, so it is hardly visible.This is the most common way of building with it locally.

 

Oh I don't live in Downham, but I do occasionally visit the brightlights...

 

Andy G

[runs as required]

Just got back from a trip out, (canvey island), and trying to remember how the downham market station was done. I think it was made in small slabs, rather than pebbles, and the cement infill wasn't that obvious, the effect was layered, rather like drystone walling in miniature. Very much an umber shade, but now we're off on to another job altogether.

You have an impressive recall of detail there.  Yes, I believe the small slabs are called 'slips' and are carefully pushed tightly into lime mortar so that none of the white lime mortar is visible. I have to say that after these experiments, I prefer the sparkle of the variegated 'rubble' carstone (as Kevin says 'like a tweed'), though I bet the 'selected' stone of the more uniform DM version was the more expensive.

 

My daughter lived for some years across at Uppingham, where I knew some builders who owned the last working Colleyweston 'slate' mine near Stamford. They told me  'waste' from the ironstone oolitic' slate' production was used in a similar fashion in neighbouring Rutland villages.  I think I recall seeing it in small chapels often with red brick quoins and trimming around openings.

dh

Edited May 6, 2016 by runs as required