RMweb Gold Culmhead Posted March 15, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2016 It is all very interesting, but i still find many don't understand the retail market fully. An average model shop has to make a very large investment in stock to open, and it is not surprising many shops close when the owners retire. I have suggested over past few years that groups of modellers should club together and open a shop. It is now easier with crowdfunding. This might just result in more real model shops. The alternative is either no shops, having to deal directly with manufacturers or wholesalers., or more 'home based' businesses at exhibitions. When it comes to comparing running costs, there is a lot to consider. Location in even a small town can mean big differences in rental cost, and to be fair, we modellers are not that fussy about location . Obviously a nice clean shop helps. I could rent a small , fully enclosed indoor unit from my council in market hall, for about £40 per week. Not much room for storage, but that could be solved easily. Oh, that includes business rates and all services. The big cost would be the stock. I think that some who trade from home, could actually find this a worthwhile option to take, but they do need to have the money to buy the stock. Many councils have similar deals as they often have difficulty getting tenants. I think railway modellers would find such a shop very hand, and trade is not as dependent on passing trade. If I had the cash, and was a few years younger, I might be tempted myself, having run a shop before. As for Hornby, maybe current situation explains what is happening with their international range online. Since finding it, I have been checking it daily, and today noticed some prices had been cut by a good amount, tempting me. Looked at the Hornby site (again) after your post. Unfortunately, temptation was just too hard to resist following todays reductions (I'm very weak when it comes to model railways!). Although the wallet is slightly lighter, I'm very pleased and many thanks for the tip. Personally, it is great that Hornby are now marketing some of their international range in the UK - I hope more will come in the future (assuming they continue as a going concern), a great step forward in this respect. Regards, Aidan PS. Many thanks, once again Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 That still leaves a grey area as there is one person who regularly appears at shows in our part of the world (he was at Basingstoke last weekend) who doesn't have a retail premises but does - so I understand - have a rented business unit which is the base for his operation; he sells both new and secondhand and obviously has lower overheads than running a retail premises. And I see several similarly based operations who sell retail (but not necessarily Hornby) will be at All Pally this coming weekend - which leaves me unsure about quite how the hobby should deal with such people (assuming it actually wants to deal with them if they are offering bargain basement prices). If that's the gentleman I'm thinking of, he's a regular trader at my own show and naturally I have no qualms about him whatsoever! I'm don't know that he really poses a threat to the bricks and mortar traders though - there aren't many of those around (Marlow Donkey, the Dolls House shop in Twyford - neither of which are particularly easy to get to - and Church Street Models in Basingstoke are the only ones I can think of). Most of the local shops closed before he came on the scene, so I don't think he can really be blamed for their demise. (And I don't really think he's undercutting anyone very much with his prices - he doesn't overcharge but he doesn't generally seem to offer 'silly price' bargains either). But by trading at shows he makes model railway purchases physically accessible to the public attending the shows, especially of course the newcomers who've just popped in for something to do, think 'I could do that' and want something to take away with them. (In the first few years of my show, I rang round the local shops but most weren't interested in bringing a trade stand - the Twyford shop wasn't around then - but none were interested as it would mean closing their shop for a day). Provided they trade honestly, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who gives up their weekend to turn out to run a trade stand at an exhibition - particularly if they have a 'day job' as well. It can be just as long a day running a trade stand as it is taking a layout - the gentleman in question is usually waiting to be let in when I open the hall up at 7:30am and he's often one of the last to leave. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2016 If that's the gentleman I'm thinking of, he's a regular trader at my own show and naturally I have no qualms about him whatsoever! I'm don't know that he really poses a threat to the bricks and mortar traders though - there aren't many of those around (Marlow Donkey, the Dolls House shop in Twyford - neither of which are particularly easy to get to - and Church Street Models in Basingstoke are the only ones I can think of). Most of the local shops closed before he came on the scene, so I don't think he can really be blamed for their demise. (And I don't really think he's undercutting anyone very much with his prices - he doesn't overcharge but he doesn't generally seem to offer 'silly price' bargains either). But by trading at shows he makes model railway purchases physically accessible to the public attending the shows, especially of course the newcomers who've just popped in for something to do, think 'I could do that' and want something to take away with them. (In the first few years of my show, I rang round the local shops but most weren't interested in bringing a trade stand - the Twyford shop wasn't around then - but none were interested as it would mean closing their shop for a day). Provided they trade honestly, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who gives up their weekend to turn out to run a trade stand at an exhibition - particularly if they have a 'day job' as well. It can be just as long a day running a trade stand as it is taking a layout - the gentleman in question is usually waiting to be let in when I open the hall up at 7:30am and he's often one of the last to leave. His prices are very much on a par with what retailers in the reasonable vicinity charge although less than some (such as the Dolls House shop who are very much top whack RRP for model railways judging by a 'window shopping' visit). I do agree with you regarding this chap - he certainly hasn't really hurt any shop based retailer's business although he used to discount much more deeply (I didn't look at his prices on Saturday as I was too busy but I usually have a look at the Didcot show as he does do secondhand as well) and he does have a business premises - it's years since he worked out of his house and back then he only dealt in secondhand being a regular at various local swap meets such as the Top Rank in Reading and the one at Woodley. He has also been very good in the past at attending new and small shows and at one such, where I had a part built layout, he had such a poor day that I finished up buying this from him - but don't tell anyone I happen to have one of these 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I think for a while he did hold his prices back - when loco prices first hit the £100 barrier he told me sales tailed off because many people were willing to pay £99 for a loco but psychologically going over £100 was a big step (when I was growing up £100 was a considerable sum of money). Consequently he tried to keep his prices below that level for as long as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete47401 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'm sorry to chose your post as an example, it's not personal but is this not Hornby's problem in a nutshell. 'I will only buy if it's cheap and discounted', but 'nasty Hornby if they undercut the RRP by selling direct' Everyone likes a bargain, it's human nature, but I'm sure most retailers on here have had plenty of calls/emails asking what's the best price on so and so, and you quote them a pretty good price... answer comes back, they'll think about it - in other words they are asking around other places trying to squeeze an extra 1% or so, meanwhile you're thinking is this a definite order, should I delete the listings, will he be back or won't he? Stumbling across a nice bargain is one thing, actively trying to force prices down is another... but again, human nature I suppose... In the long run, I'm not sure they are really coming out ahead, as while we try to look after all our customers, the really valued ones are the loyal ones who don't quibble over £1 here and there and keep coming back... now, they are the ones who get offered the best bargains or first chance on something special or rare that we might get in stock, the ones who we might go the extra mile to obtain something for... We all have those "special" customers I'm sure? 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Who is this concession,do they have a website and do they deliver. I wouldn't mind a few reduced top of the range gwr engines Fenwicks, Northumberland Street, Newcastle upon Tyne - and the answers are probably yes. Edit: I bow to those who may know better, but as they are local its not something I've needed to enquire about. Nevertheless my original point remains that there probably wouldn't be so many discounted GWR locos in Newcastle upon Tyne if Hornby were more attuned to the local market. Edited March 16, 2016 by Caledonian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 If that's the gentleman I'm thinking of, he's a regular trader at my own show and naturally I have no qualms about him whatsoever! I'm don't know that he really poses a threat to the bricks and mortar traders though - there aren't many of those around (Marlow Donkey, the Dolls House shop in Twyford - neither of which are particularly easy to get to - and Church Street Models in Basingstoke are the only ones I can think of). Most of the local shops closed before he came on the scene, so I don't think he can really be blamed for their demise. (And I don't really think he's undercutting anyone very much with his prices - he doesn't overcharge but he doesn't generally seem to offer 'silly price' bargains either). But by trading at shows he makes model railway purchases physically accessible to the public attending the shows, especially of course the newcomers who've just popped in for something to do, think 'I could do that' and want something to take away with them. (In the first few years of my show, I rang round the local shops but most weren't interested in bringing a trade stand - the Twyford shop wasn't around then - but none were interested as it would mean closing their shop for a day). Provided they trade honestly, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who gives up their weekend to turn out to run a trade stand at an exhibition - particularly if they have a 'day job' as well. It can be just as long a day running a trade stand as it is taking a layout - the gentleman in question is usually waiting to be let in when I open the hall up at 7:30am and he's often one of the last to leave. Ian "Close" Shave, by any chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2016 Ian "Close" Shave, by any chance? No. Fenwicks, Northumberland Street, Newcastle upon Tyne - and the answers are probably yes. Edit: I bow to those who may know better, but as they are local its not something I've needed to enquire about. Nevertheless my original point remains that there probably wouldn't be so many discounted GWR locos in Newcastle upon Tyne if Hornby were more attuned to the local market. Unless things have changed (and Locomotion might be treated a bit differently anyway) Hornby concessions receive the stock which Hornby send them and Hornby sets the prices. Sending a pile of GW engines to a chain store in Newcastle when Hornby have their own outlet in Swindon (still?) strikes me as commercial stupidity indicative of a company which doesn't have staff attuned to its potential markets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted March 16, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 16, 2016 Which I think is why they need knowledgable local reps who kind of know what will sell in the area. That's not to say there are Southern fans in Scotland and vice versa, but you might expect a higher degree of local interest 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Unless things have changed (and Locomotion might be treated a bit differently anyway) Hornby concessions receive the stock which Hornby send them and Hornby sets the prices. Sending a pile of GW engines to a chain store in Newcastle when Hornby have their own outlet in Swindon (still?) strikes me as commercial stupidity indicative of a company which doesn't have staff attuned to its potential markets. Exactly so and I think this is a symptom of that whizzy idea that internet sales are the only way to go and that the location of the customer can therefore be disregarded. Its a valid argument up to a point but disregards the importance of not only letting the dog see the rabbit, but making sure its the right rabbit 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) I'm sorry to chose your post as an example, it's not personal but is this not Hornby's problem in a nutshell. 'I will only buy if it's cheap and discounted', but 'nasty Hornby if they undercut the RRP by selling direct' I resent the inference that my purchase of model railway products is driven only by price reductions and 'bargains'. Similar to what rovex mentioned up-thread, I have recently purchased 9 of the new Hornby Collett coaches at just a shade under the RRP (totalling over £300 of product), whilst last year I purchased 2 of the GWR Castle 'Wellington' at both RRP and with a 10% retailer discount respectively. I can certainly assure you that when there is an item that I want, and that meets my 'value test', then I will happily cough up the RRP for it. I'm not of a demographic who can willingly and perhaps unthinkably spend whatever is charged for all the products that I want. My disposable income at the end of each month is often not sufficient enough to even purchase a pair of RTR coaches, for example, such is the cost of living in 2016 Britain. Indeed, my outlay on the 9 Colletts as mentioned above was only justified because a.) I've been saving up for them and b.) I genuinely worried (worry?) for Hornby's future, and so felt there was a chance - a slim one admittedly - that this years Collett's release may be the only one we were ever going to see. Yes, perhaps there is a slight element of greediness in some of my bargain purchases, but in the main I buy reduced models because they lend themselves to modelling projects, in addition to bulking up my fleet for a more modest financial outlay. But I'm certainly not going to look a gift-horse in the mouth should Hornby, a concession or indeed an independent trader offer substantial price reductions on stock that I am interested in - surely I'm not alone in that? If Hornby are going to flog off the £199.99 RRP 'Tyseley Connection' Train Packs via their concession at Hawkin's Bazaar at £99.99 a throw then that's their look out, and I'm more than entitled to benefit from their commercial decision to offload them at 50% off: is it a crime to do so? I've not profiteered by selling them on at a mark up for example - I bought 2 for modelling projects, which I couldn't justify doing at full RRP (given my lack of modelling skill and liability to make a pig's-ear of any modelling amendments made to the Hall loco). I want to see Hornby thrive and go on to make quality product as much as the next RMwebber, but don't martyr modellers such as me who snap up the occasional bargain, on the alter of Hornby's recent commercial ineptitude. CoY Edited March 16, 2016 by County of Yorkshire 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'm sorry to chose your post as an example, it's not personal but is this not Hornby's problem in a nutshell. 'I will only buy if it's cheap and discounted', but 'nasty Hornby if they undercut the RRP by selling direct' There's a big difference in opportunistically purchasing something gathering dust on a brick and mortar retailer's shelf that the retailer has priced to move (this is a win/win, the purchaser gets a 'one time' bargain and the retailer gets rid of some slow moving inventory) versus lauding Hornby's recent 'dash for cash' marketing strategy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete47401 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Which I think is why they need knowledgable local reps who kind of know what will sell in the area. That's not to say there are Southern fans in Scotland and vice versa, but you might expect a higher degree of local interest Sometimes I think reps know less about real railways (and how that translates into model sales) than the manufacturers themselves do. Are concession stores sale or return? Seem to recall hearing once that they were. Better off those out of region models being paid for and sitting in a "normal" dealers stock in the right part of the country. Edited March 16, 2016 by Pete47401 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 .... I want to see Hornby thrive and go on to make quality product as much as the next RMwebber, but don't martyr modellers such as me who snap up the occasional bargain, on the alter of Hornby's recent commercial ineptitude. Maybe it would be more appropriate, given the above, if Hornby were to issue a warning to say that they were in danger of making a profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 If that's the gentleman I'm thinking of..... initials N.C ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains&armour Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Let's say something positive about Hornby. It's management might not know what's doing (wanted to use another expression, but I think it would be censored...) but at least some of the people who work for Hornby do! I sent them my broken E-link a week ago, and received a brand new one in the post today. I originally got mine as a gift over a year ago, and didn't have a proof of purchase. But no comment, and my complaint was dealt with in fast and efficient manner. Full marks to Hornby's customer service! 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2016 Sometimes I think reps know less about real railways (and how that translates into model sales) than the manufacturers themselves do. Are concession stores sale or return? Seem to recall hearing once that they were. Better off those out of region models being paid for and sitting in a "normal" dealers stock in the right part of the country. The concession stock belongs to Hornby - they send it to their concession sites having decided what to send to each site, they set the price and any variations, and the stock belongs to them until it is sold. The concession receives a commission on sales which nowadays might offer a slightly better rate of return than acting in the normal retail fashion but I'm not sure on that one however it does avoid the cost of stock holding falling onto the retailer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 The "having decided what to send to each site" appears to be the point where they are going wrong and suggests that some good old-fashioned market research might be what's lacking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Let's say something positive about Hornby. Its management might not know what it's doing... ...and hence it's not that different from a great many other companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2016 ...and hence it's not that different from a great many other companies. Or governments for that matter..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete47401 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 The concession stock belongs to Hornby - they send it to their concession sites having decided what to send to each site, they set the price and any variations, and the stock belongs to them until it is sold. The concession receives a commission on sales which nowadays might offer a slightly better rate of return than acting in the normal retail fashion but I'm not sure on that one however it does avoid the cost of stock holding falling onto the retailer. Thanks, thought so. How to tie up money..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete47401 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 The "having decided what to send to each site" appears to be the point where they are going wrong and suggests that some good old-fashioned market research might be what's lacking But that would involve talking to those weird saddoes who like trains, they might catch the lurgy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2016 When the local Hawkin's Bazaar closed the Hornby brands (very limited range in store) were sold off cheaply. Presumably that was cheaper, for just one small shop, than packing it all up and sending it back to Hornby or to another branch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Interesting to note that as of this morning, the 'Last Chance to Buy' section has disappeared from Hornby's website. Change is afoot! CoY Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted March 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2016 Interesting to note that as of this morning, the 'Last Chance to Buy' section has disappeared from Hornby's website. Change is afoot! CoY Good job I bought those coaches yesterday then and not today They've been making tweaks to their website over the last few weeks to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now