Questions on powering mixed stock layouts?

[Cardinal Richtea]

I have a real jumble sale of kit as I had some Hornby stuff from my childhood in the late 1970s, I bought some older Triang and Hornby locos (probably early 1960s to early 1980s), and I have about 4 that I bought new last year. I have a number of queries and issues, and I hope someone can answer some questions I have about setting up too. Although I have Googled for answers myself, I apologies in advance for any idiotic newbie questions.

 

First of all, what surprised me is that the new Hornby models perform so much better than all the older kit. I was expecting it to be the opposite as the Triang models are British made, heavy and appear to have better quality base materials , than the mass produced, thin plastic, Chinese made modern stuff. The older heavy metal Triang models do not move at all, and in fact seem to short out my whole track as I have to unplug the powersupply and leave it quite a long time before it works again. This also happens with a Hornby train from the 80s that I bought off Ebay (though I guess this is slightly better as it does wheeze and vibrate slightly before everything dies. I suspect that the older metal Triang trains are drawing up too much power and causing the Hornby controller from my Mallard set (17V I believe is written on the label) to cop out. I managed to resurrect a sickly 70s Hornby loco by having it pushed around my track for 20 minutes by a sparky little shunter until it could move well by itself (although it remains nosy). The wheezy barely flickering 80s Hornby loco, I suspect is just knackered and useful as decorative scrap (from what I have read repairing old stock with serious motor issues is not worth attempting – but please tell me if this is wrong). I can comprehend that this is a safety feature, but why does it take so looooooong for it to come alive again? I have about 6 heavy duty (at least in appearance) old controllers which probably range from about 30 to 50 years in age. I have read on forums to get these safety checked before using them, but was wondering what the most efficient and cost effective way forward would be in terms of proceeding with this? Are these old controllers likely to be higher quality and more heavy duty as a means to power disparate stock, or has the technology moved on and I would be better with buying a new controller? Either way I would be spending money on an electrician if I were to test and run my old controllers, or on a purchase to buy a new one (any recommendations for a reliable, reasonably heavy duty controller that is not continually cutting out and is modestly priced?). Would like to have the ability to run several locomotives of disparate stock  at once (maybe 4 or something), preferably of different time periods (and therefore with varying power demands).

 

Secondly, I have enough track to take me to the moon and would like to create an interesting layout using much of the resources I also possess. The massive amount of Triang track is very old and is likely to be a challenge to get up and running smoothly, so was thinking I will primarily use the Hornby track from my two recents sets. I have a 6’ x 4’ baseboard painted earth brown, and was thinking of having two loops – the external one being slightly larger, with a connecting piece so locos can go on either. I was wondering how these would be powered – would each require its own source? If so I assume I cannot use the cheap little plastic Hornby controller supplied with their individual train sets as it appears to only have one controller. I am sure someone will tell me I am being over ambitious with my first layout, but I am thinking of having a hillside scene, where the track would have to climb up a gradient to meet a bridge and then come down again. My preference would be for a power option to meet this requirement too. I have heard that a feedback power supply would be appropriate, but as I have spent a lot of money already and am thinking I might go to DCC in the future, would this be compatible with both DCC and analog providing I also had the appropriate controllers for each (I know some will be slapping their foreheads with rage at this question, but I just Googled this and did not find an obvious answer to my newbie brain)? I want to build an analog layout but already have a DCC one from Ebay in my garage, and it would be good that I do not buy TOO much stuff that is only applicable to one or the other.

 

I have plenty of other questions, but will just stick to the power issue for now as I don’t want to be too provocative in my first post. Thanks very much in advance.

[DCB]

Your old Hornby locos need a service and possibly super neo magnets.   They do draw a lot more milliamps than modern Hornby and Bachmann locos but they do have a life expectancy of well over 50 years whereas Bachmann seem to last 5 years.  However they should not trip the 1 amp cut outs on the old controllers, if they crawl there is something wrong.  

Some thermal cut outs do take a long time to reset which is a sign that they are worn out 

 

Old transformers can be good.  The insulation can fail and if you are particularly unlucky you could end up dead especially the metal cased ones.  However unscrewing the base and giving it a once over with the MK1 eyeball should reveal any particular nasties.  I have Hornby Dublo Marshall 3 transformers, last made around 1963 which work fine, and several Triang controllers from pre 1967.  I also have some more recent Triang Hornby and Hammant and Morgan controllers which suffered failed insulation, so take it apart and check or  If it does not come apart bin it.  

 

I find the best controllers for mixed fleets are variable voltage units, H and M Safety Minor, OnTrack and Morley.  You can check if controllers  are variable voltage with a voltmeter.  Connect a voltmeter across the output, Turn the control knob and check the voltage, if it starts at 1 volt or less it is variable voltage, if it shoots to 17 or so it is variable resistance.  A variable voltage unit lets you double head a 1960s Hornby Dublo 0-6-0T with a 2015 Bachmann 0-6-0T,    Playcraft made some extremely cheap but effective variable voltage units utilising diodes. 

 

Every loco I operate has to be able to be banked by a 1970s Triang Hornby Hall class chassis with a Prairie tank body up a 1 in 36 gradient One or two locos wont run fast enough, the very low geared Hornby 42XX and Bachmann Std 5mt are two, but they wont double head modern Hornby Black 5s or Bachmann panniers either.

 

The Triang Track is a bit naff for a serious layout but great fun on the floor.  The Hornby system 6 is code 100 so should be ok.  All the older track is steel and rusts   The steel fishplates are particularly bad and I am not aware of a suitable modern replacement.

[kevinlms]

OK, you have several issue there with your old models. You're tripping out the thermal overload (two dissimilar metals & you need to wait for it to cool down - quicker if well ventilated). However the fact its tripping, is a warning sign and you should desist running with that model until the issue is resolved.

 

First thing you need to do is make sure your track is clean. Since its old Tri-ang etc, its steel, so DO NOT use an abrasive cleaning rubber, as it will take off any remaining coating. You can clean it with a soft cloth & IPA or even methylated spirit. But NEVER use WD40 - its a menace to model railways, as it can cause plastics, to go brittle. Don't be fooled, it usually takes 6 months to take effect and is now much too late! How do I know?

 

Next you need to clean the wheels the same way & also pick out any fluff, you can see.

 

Those are good starting points & will give you something to do! With your controllers, is there a club near you? Might be an idea to get someone who knows, to give a look over, before spending any more money. Some won't be worth fixing, unless you are really keen! Just take a couple of sample ones on your first visit, not a boxful, as a poor image! You don't want anyone to think 'Not another one', who wants a valuation on something, they think is valuable, but it isn't!

 

But with the right approach, who knows, you might find that the club could be worthwhile joining.

 

 

David has offered some good advice on what might be faults with the models, especially the magnets, but start by sorting out, what is OK and what isn't.

[AdamsRadial]

I've been resurrecting some very old Triang and Hornby stock the past few weeks and have also come across the cases of locomotives tripping the controller. What I've tracked it down to in most cases is congealed oil and grit forming a bond between axles and chassis. I've had success in dealing with this by stripping the mechanism down as far as possible without removing the wheels, then dunking it in an Ultrasonic cleaning bath with a solution of washing up liquid and windscreen-washer fluid. After three or four goes in the bath I take the mechanism out and air-dry it with a footpump and piece of hose. It then gets inspected and lubricated. The motor usually needs IPA or meths to clean up the bearings, again due to congealed oil and dirt, the commutators need cleaning with a glassfibre brush, the slots get picked out with cocktail sticks,, the motor gets a test run away from the chassis, and then some careful running in with a wheel-cleaning brush and scraper set. Once I'm happy with the wheels and pickups, I'll test it on the track.

 

The point about weak magnets increasing the current draw is very valid. You'll see elsewhere in the motors thread I've tried a quick and dirty fix by attaching a small Neodymium disk to the magnet, but the only long-term cure for loss of flux in the Alnico motors is re-magnetising. There is, or was, a Ronald Dodds apparatus which claimed to be able to do just that. I'm in the process of stripping the actuator solenoids off of a couple of old V6 starter motors to try and make my own mad-scientist re-magnetiser, I'll crow about on here if it works, and keep quiet if the whole thing goes up in smoke or powdered magnet dust.

[DCB]

With the tired motors if they crawl when you run them and they trip the 1 amp cut outs you may well find they overheat and the  solder holding the wiring to the commutator melts and the connection fails.  I have a small drawer full of burned out X04 armatures and my Wrenn 08 did it from brand new in around 10 feet from first trying it.   I was suggesting a bespoke Super Neo magnet as advertised on  Ebay but I had good results with a stack of them from old Computer disc drives in a tired X04 without the standard magnet.

 

If you start mixing and matching Triang Hornby armatures the Dock shunter, power bogie armature and Scalextric power sled armature have the commutator skewed round 90 degrees to the loco X04 and wont work.   However the Power bogie armature fits the K's Mk 2 it runs rougher but is a lot more powerful and the K's 5 pole, and Airfix MRRC 5 pole fit both loco X04 and the power bogie and work equally well in either, though smoother revvier and with less torque than the 3 pole.

 

Good advice re cleaning, also check for metal bits on the old Magnadhesion magnets as that can cause partial shorts, and check the back of the wheel is clean where the contact rubs.   Gunge on axles can be quite a problem, can be fatal on split chassis.    Suitable oil is a problem on split chassis, it must conduct, I guess Peco Electrolube is the stuff.   For other non split chassis I use car automatic transmission fluid, applied with a syringe, I had most of a litre left after changing a power steering pump, it seems kinder to plastic than 3 in 1 WD 40 etc.

[Cardinal Richtea]

Truly many thanks to all who kindly replied. To be frank after reading this and my research in other areas, I have become somewhat intimidated away from my original grandiose plans. Last December I bought a DCC track off Ebay and though I just have a single DCC locomotive so far, because I have the power unit / controller and track all set up, I will focus my current efforts on improving this aesthetically (it is very ugly with some 60s style urban buildings - goodness knows why anyone would want that as it is a new track) , and then come back to my analog setup which I was building from scratch when I am more confident with the whole modelling business. I fully intend on following this up though as I have a vast amount of old stock, and I found everyone's advice very interesting and have no intention of letting it go wasted. With DCC as well it is my understanding that power issues are more simplified as the momentum per unit  is made uniform - hope I am not offending anyone with my ignorance here. Actually, I'm sure I will have plenty of issues with this layout to enquire about, so I hope I can infringe upon your tolerance again in the near future.

[AdamsRadial]

"With DCC as well it is my understanding that power issues are more simplified as the momentum per unit  is made uniform"

 

My experience is almost the opposite, although it might be the particular models and track.

 

I got a DCC starter set as a way of getting back into the hobby; a Hornby B12, three Pullmans, a J52, a few wagons, and the entry-level Select controller. It all worked well, but I also had a couple of suitcases full of old stuff I had been given years ago which I wanted to get running. I resurrected enough track and points to build up a two-oval line with a high-level terminus, and wanted to add a low-level reverse loop.

 

Things went wrong almost at once when I swapped out the short Hornby points which implemented the two crossovers between the inner and outer loops for Hornby Express points, because the Pullmans were not happy running across the tight radius of the standard points. But now, the two locomotives weren't happy with the Express points, and would come to a crashing stop when they reached them. After a second, they would then start moving again, but I suspected the interruption to the power was annoying the decoders, and found out I would need keep-alive capacitors as a cure for this problem. Even running them at speed didn't stop the crashing jolt but if anything made it worse.

 

However, running some other Analogue locomotives on the 0-address gave no such problems. I tried several old locomotives I had picked up, and apart from a Triang Saddletank, they all ran through the points far better than the two DCC locomotives.

 

Whilst pondering whether to spend a lot of money on the Hornby reverse-loop module, lots of decoders for the collection of locomotives, keep-alive capacitor systems for them, and the more advanced Hornby Elite controller, I converted the two DCC locomotives back to DC by pulling out the decoders and jumpering two wires to join the pickup feeds to the motors. To my surprise, they now ran through the Express points more smoothly, still juddering every now and then, but no longer coming to a crashing stop and taking a second to restart.

 

Cost-wise, I realised, I could buy a lot of stock for what I was likely to be spending if I continued along the DCC path, and I also found I enjoyed the challenge of getting old mechanisms back to life. Wiring up the layout was obviously far more complicated in terms of isolating sections and the change-over switch for the reverse loop, but it seems far less of a negative than the need to fit decoders into over a dozen old locos.