clarkeeboy56 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I started adding some additional droppers to my track yesterday. Started off reasonably okay, but after I had added three or four, the solder then refused to adhere to the wire, and then to the track. I had scraped the track clean and added flux to both track and droppers, but both just went black and the solder dropped off......any ideas what I was doing wrong? I was using coiled solder and flux paste. My iron is a variable type. Many thanks Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted February 21, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2016 Whats the tip like on your iron? you need to keep it clean, or you will be adding impurities to whatever you solder... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Whats the tip like on your iron? you need to keep it clean, or you will be adding impurities to whatever you solder... Andy G Thanks for you reply Andy. I thought that the tip was clean, I kept wiping it on its sponge, and it looked nice, shiny and " tinned" when using it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 You say 'coiled solder', I hope you mean 'cored solder'. In other words flux all the way up little tubes inside the solder. If this is what you are using you really don't need any other flux. Try tinning a freshly stripped piece of wire on the bench, make sure everything is clean, and watch closely. If 'black' stuff appears where does it come from. You may have your iron too hot and burning the flux, use the minimum amount of solder, no additional flux, and give it time for everything to get hot enough. One last thought, it's not the wire insulation getting burned is it ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gra Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Hi Bill I'm soldering loads of droppers at the moment. Keeping everything clean is most important. Rinse your sponge out in clean water then get your iron up to temperature and wipe the tip thoroughly on the sponge until you are sure that it is clean. Clean the track with something like an abrasive fibre pencil then tin the track and wire with a lead solder, not forgetting to add flux to both first. Add more flux to both, clean the iron tip again before loading it with more solder to make the join. I'm using a high powered Aoyue 9378 soldering station and it really does make the job easy. You get an instant join as soon as the tip comes into contact with the wire and rail. Good luck! Gra Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 You say 'coiled solder', I hope you mean 'cored solder'. In other words flux all the way up little tubes inside the solder. If this is what you are using you really don't need any other flux. Try tinning a freshly stripped piece of wire on the bench, make sure everything is clean, and watch closely. If 'black' stuff appears where does it come from. You may have your iron too hot and burning the flux, use the minimum amount of solder, no additional flux, and give it time for everything to get hot enough. One last thought, it's not the wire insulation getting burned is it ?Thanks Cliff, it's a coil of solder. I don't know if it is cored. It came with the soldering station, along with the flux paste. I'm fairly sure that it wasn't the wire insulation that was burning, but i'll have another go, and see what happens. Thanks again for your input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Hi Bill I'm soldering loads of droppers at the moment. Keeping everything clean is most important. Rinse your sponge out in clean water then get your iron up to temperature and wipe the tip thoroughly on the sponge until you are sure that it is clean. Clean the track with something like an abrasive fibre pencil then tin the track and wire with a lead solder, not forgetting to add flux to both first. Add more flux to both, clean the iron tip again before loading it with more solder to make the join. I'm using a high powered Aoyue 9378 soldering station and it really does make the job easy. You get an instant join as soon as the tip comes into contact with the wire and rail. Good luck Gra Thanks Gra, I'll make sure everything is clean. I thought that it was, but I may well have been wrong. I!ll have another go later in the week. Many thanks again Gra. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Sounds like too cold an iron and probably lead free solder. No need for flux if you use rosin multicore solder. But the fact it worked and then didn't it is typical symptom of an iron under-powered or not kept tinned or has become contaminated with rubbish from the sponge (I never use a sponge) It is often thought that a low power iron will do but then forget that track is a big heat sink. Of course too much heat will melt plastic sleepers and the plastic coating on the wire but part of the problem there is that you shouldn't be lingering around so long to let that happen. Soldering is all about going in fast with everything clean and applying enough heat for the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 21, 2016 Author Share Posted February 21, 2016 Sounds like too cold an iron and probably lead free solder. No need for flux if you use rosin multicore solder. But the fact it worked and then didn't it is typical symptom of an iron under-powered or not kept tinned or has become contaminated with rubbish from the sponge (I never use a sponge) It is often thought that a low power iron will do but then forget that track is a big heat sink. Of course too much heat will melt plastic sleepers and the plastic coating on the wire but part of the problem there is that you shouldn't be lingering around so long to let that happen. Soldering is all about going in fast with everything clean and applying enough heat for the job. Thanks for that Kenton, I was actually lingering around by that time so that could be the case. My iron is variable and at 58 watts, so that should be hot enough. I probably had it turned down too far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Dicky Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 If the tip is clean and when wiped on the wet sponge is shiny then it is tinned correctly. The lack of adhesion to the rail and wire sounds like you are not delivering enough heat. Bear in mind your soldering iron is a source of heat and not a solder melter, in order for solder to fuse to the surface of the parts to be soldered those two materials need to be brought up to the temperature at which the solder will melt. The process with the rail is first clean with something like a fibre glass pencil. Apply your soldering iron to the rail, count 1-2-3 and feed the solder in. If you have rosin cored solder you should not need to add further flux. If enough heat has got into the rail you will see the solder flow onto it. If it does not then it suggests to me your iron is not delivering enough heat and you need to crank up the output. Repeat with the stripped wire. With both wire and rail tinned the wire simply needs to held steady on the rail and applying the iron for another 1-2-3 count should remelt the solder and fuse together again no further flux should be required. You can add flux if it makes you happy it certainly will not do any harm. Make sure as you take off the soldering iron the wire does not move and hold it in place for a few seconds to allow the solder to freeze. As Kenton has said it is in and out fast deliver the heat as fast as you can you are less likely to melt sleepers with a high powered iron then you are with a low powered iron. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I've had experiences where one colour wire has tinned perfectly but another colour wire bought at the same time and presumably the same manufacture has gone black between the strands as I tinned it. I just flooded the wire end with solder until it came good then shook the excess off. I wonder if it's a manufacturing fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 There's also track and there's track... I'm soldering dropper wires onto old and new Hornby rails, some of which are nickel-silver, some are the older steel which I have nickel-plated myself. In general I get a good take of the solder on both types after using the glass-fibre brush, but several times now I've gone in with the iron and watched the solder simply fall off the metal. In those cases, I've then given those spots a good cleaning with IPA, gone back, and got a good joint. I suspect there's been oil or grease residue on the rail as a result of handling, or loco's dripping oil as they waddled around, and all the initial scrub with the glass-fibre brush did was spread the oil around. It's probably due to heat-conductance, but I actually find nickel-plated steel rail easier to solder to than nickel-silver rail. I also find that putting a small blob of solder on the bit immediately before bringing it into contact with the rail gets me a quicker tinning action than just touching the iron to the rail and then bringing in the solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 If the tip is clean and when wiped on the wet sponge is shiny then it is tinned correctly. The lack of adhesion to the rail and wire sounds like you are not delivering enough heat. Bear in mind your soldering iron is a source of heat and not a solder melter, in order for solder to fuse to the surface of the parts to be soldered those two materials need to be brought up to the temperature at which the solder will melt. The process with the rail is first clean with something like a fibre glass pencil. Apply your soldering iron to the rail, count 1-2-3 and feed the solder in. If you have rosin cored solder you should not need to add further flux. If enough heat has got into the rail you will see the solder flow onto it. If it does not then it suggests to me your iron is not delivering enough heat and you need to crank up the output. Repeat with the stripped wire. With both wire and rail tinned the wire simply needs to held steady on the rail and applying the iron for another 1-2-3 count should remelt the solder and fuse together again no further flux should be required. You can add flux if it makes you happy it certainly will not do any harm. Make sure as you take off the soldering iron the wire does not move and hold it in place for a few seconds to allow the solder to freeze. As Kenton has said it is in and out fast deliver the heat as fast as you can you are less likely to melt sleepers with a high powered iron then you are with a low powered iron. Richard thanks Richard, very useful advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 There's also track and there's track... I'm soldering dropper wires onto old and new Hornby rails, some of which are nickel-silver, some are the older steel which I have nickel-plated myself. In general I get a good take of the solder on both types after using the glass-fibre brush, but several times now I've gone in with the iron and watched the solder simply fall off the metal. In those cases, I've then given those spots a good cleaning with IPA, gone back, and got a good joint. I suspect there's been oil or grease residue on the rail as a result of handling, or loco's dripping oil as they waddled around, and all the initial scrub with the glass-fibre brush did was spread the oil around. It's probably due to heat-conductance, but I actually find nickel-plated steel rail easier to solder to than nickel-silver rail. I also find that putting a small blob of solder on the bit immediately before bringing it into contact with the rail gets me a quicker tinning action than just touching the iron to the rail and then bringing in the solder. yes, I think I'll get some IPA, the track does get tarnished very easily so a good clean will help. Thanks for replying Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 First of all, many thanks to everyone who offered advice here. It's greatly appreciated. I have purchased a small tube of 60/40 rosin cored solder, some new clean wire and today managed to solder one end of each of the dozen or so droppers successfully. The secret was indeed to keep everything clean, well as clean as I could, with a very wet sponge. I had the iron as hot as possible and got in, and out as soon as possible. The problems I had were I think, self- inflicted, and just down to my poor technique! It's all a bit of a learning curve this soldering malarkey.....but hopefully, I'm getting there.... Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The problems I had were I think, self- inflicted, and just down to my poor technique! It's all a bit of a learning curve this soldering malarkey.....but hopefully, I'm getting there.... Cheers Don't beat yourself up too much. Soldering takes a while to learn and some of us have been learning for a lifetime. It should get easier but then there are just those days (blame it on the weather) when something gets neglected and it all seems to go wrong. The best thing about soldering is that if you just come back to it, take it all back to the components and clean it up gain, it just seems to work right. Sometimes I find all it takes is a short walk, away from the job, a new mug of coffee and refocusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
14Steve14 Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 A tip for those that have a soldering iron with a changeable tip is to make sure the tip is clean in its mount and any screws are tight. A loose tip can cause problems with lack of heat generated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 Thanks to everyone for their input. It's greatly appreciated. I managed to add the droppers to the track yesterday, and that went okay. Just one added query, my iron is a "Fahrenheit Soldering station" and is 58watts. This gives a temperature range of 150degrees - 480 degrees. Now reading other posts on here, I'm thinking that the wattage may be too great and the iron may be too hot. Is that so? Many thanks again.. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted March 6, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 6, 2016 ... or has become contaminated with rubbish from the sponge (I never use a sponge) .... ... The secret was indeed to keep everything clean, well as clean as I could, with a very wet sponge. I had the iron as hot as possible and got in, and out as soon as possible. The problems I had were I think, self- inflicted, ...... Like Kenton I never use a sponge, and reading Bill's later post I wonder if some of the earlier problems might have been exacerbated by a long dwel time on the sponge cooling the iron down. I keep a 3" length of copper clad sleeper strip next to the iron, when the iron is hot I wipe the tip with the copper face. Any crud left there from previous operations comes away easily and fresh solder will coat the tip. My iron was cheap (£3.00), I've had it for between fifteen and twenty years, it's on its original tip which has remained in perfect condition. It's hard a hard life too, building a lot of points, to commission as well as for myself. I know you wont find this practice recommended in any of the test books, it maybe seems a bit bizarre, all I can say is that it does work, and work well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Thanks to everyone for their input. It's greatly appreciated. I managed to add the droppers to the track yesterday, and that went okay. Just one added query, my iron is a "Fahrenheit Soldering station" and is 58watts. This gives a temperature range of 150degrees - 480 degrees. Now reading other posts on here, I'm thinking that the wattage may be too great and the iron may be too hot. Is that so? Many thanks again.. Bill The wattage is fine. What temperature are you soldering at ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 The wattage is fine. What temperature are you soldering at ? It would have been at the top edge of the range at 480 degrees.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It would have been at the top edge of the range at 480 degrees.... For soldering small jobs like droppers about 280/300C will be fine unless you are using lead free solder when you will need a higher temp. Use multi cored 60/40 tin lead solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 There is some irony that on the Fahrenheit soldering iron web site all the irons are shown with temperatures marked in celcius. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Rough rule of thumb is the soldering iron set to twice the melting temperature of the solder should work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkeeboy56 Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 For soldering small jobs like droppers about 280/300C will be fine unless you are using lead free solder when you will need a higher temp. Use multi cored 60/40 tin lead solder. Ok thanks, yes I did get some 60/40.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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