West Sands - BR (SR) Electrified south coast branch terminus - MISSING PHOTOS SLOWLY BEING RESTORED

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm ...... that signalbox is very “re-signalling”, although I know there were a few with mechanical frames.

 

(you know I’m just trying to protect the substation!)

[Geep7]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Hmmm ...... that signalbox is very “re-signalling”, although I know there were a few with mechanical frames.

 

(you know I’m just trying to protect the substation!)

 

Don't worry, the substation is staying. Just thinking about swapping the positions perhaps.... If I did swap it, I could get the cooling room on the back of the substation building then.

 

The signalbox will have a mechanical frame in it, and I'm sticking with semaphores. They are so much more atmospheric than colour lights.

[Geep7]

41 minutes ago, leopardml2341 said:

What's your view on the econami decoder, Chris?

 

It's rather good actually. Fantastic motor control, and the sounds are pretty good. I don't think it's as good as a Zimo with YouChoos sound, which is what's in the Std 4 2-6-4T, but then it's about £20-30 cheaper....

[leopardml2341]

53 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

 

It's rather good actually. Fantastic motor control, and the sounds are pretty good. I don't think it's as good as a Zimo with YouChoos sound, which is what's in the Std 4 2-6-4T, but then it's about £20-30 cheaper....

Any chance you could post a bit of video of each please?

[Geep7]

14 hours ago, leopardml2341 said:

Any chance you could post a bit of video of each please?

 

I'll see what I can do. I've never uploaded video before, so it could go spectacularly wrong.... 

[Mike Storey]

Personally Chris, I preferred the old signal box, but if you are determined to go with the Deal version, then a swap is probably necessary. At least that will give you more room for the sub-station.

[Geep7]

The "Deal" signalbox matches the style of my station building, so would go with a late 1930s rebuild of the station when it was electrified.

 

I like the old signalbox too, and I have plans to use it for another project, which would probably be more in keeping with its style.

 

With regard to its location, below are 2 alternative ideas.

 

<PHOTO MISSING>

The first shows the signalbox in the recess of the retaining wall. This would allow me to see the interior, which I will fully detail and light.

 

The substation (please excuse the awful, hacked about state where the cooling room was) being sited here, would allow me to add the cooling room, and then an expanded raft area to the right and rear of the building, coming towards the baseboard edge.

 

<PHOTO MISSING>

2nd option. Leave the substation where it currently is, and place the signalbox where the old one was.

 

My only worry about moving the substation would be that I'm not sure they would site it away from a running line.

 

Thoughts please?

Edited February 24, 2023 by Geep7

[leopardml2341]

Me?

 

I just prefer the older signal box.

[Nearholmer]

Some substations were quite a distance from the main running lines, over the back of the goods yard. I remember one, Plumpton or Cooksbridge, where there were great long trough it runs to the track, in which snakes used to snooze up against the nice warm cables.

[Mike Storey]

8 hours ago, Geep7 said:

The "Deal" signalbox matches the style of my station building, so would go with a late 1930s rebuild of the station when it was electrified.

 

I like the old signalbox too, and I have plans to use it for another project, which would probably be more in keeping with its style.

 

With regard to its location, below are 2 alternative ideas.

 

The first shows the signalbox in the recess of the retaining wall. This would allow me to see the interior, which I will fully detail and light.

 

The substation (please excuse the awful, hacked about state where the cooling room was) being sited here, would allow me to add the cooling room, and then an expanded raft area to the right and rear of the building, coming towards the baseboard edge.

 

2nd option. Leave the substation where it currently is, and place the signalbox where the old one was.

 

My only worry about moving the substation would be that I'm not sure they would site it away from a running line.

 

Thoughts please?

 

Definitely not the second option. 

 

For the first, despite the evidence, Rule 1 applies anyway......

 

How will you fill the gap in the cutting made? A bike shed? Or the remains of the old box? Or summat?

[Geep7]

On 16/11/2019 at 20:37, Mike Storey said:

 

Definitely not the second option. 

 

For the first, despite the evidence, Rule 1 applies anyway......

 

How will you fill the gap in the cutting made? A bike shed? Or the remains of the old box? Or summat?

 

Hmmm, not sure how I'll fill the gap yet.... I was tempted to put a set of steps coming down from the wall with a gate at the top. It's assumed that there is a road running down to the station right along the rear of the retaining wall.

 

I might place the box a bit more centrally in the gap and probably put some signalling equipment boxes and like either side. Also a couple of huts. I doubt there would be a fogman's hut, but perhaps one of the concrete platelayer huts?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Geep7

[Geep7]

So all this talk of signalboxes, and operating my friends layout at the Tolworth show a couple of weekends ago, has got me thinking about the signals on the layout.

 

Currently I have just the starters on the platform, and some ground signals. However, I was wondering whether the starter signals should also include some shunt arms as well?

 

This is the starter on my friends layout which has started me thinking. The layout, Horsebridge Wharf, is fully signalled, with a fully working lever frame. Obviously I'm not going to go this far, but I want to at least have some correct looking signals.

 

I know the goods loop should have a starter signal, either a ground signal or a short post with a yellow/white? arm. Should I have a single post starter signal with 2 dolls on it, or should they be 2 separate posts for each platform?

 

To help, I'll get a new trackplan / diagram draw and uploaded later, as it has slightly changed from the original.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Geep7

[Nearholmer]

The SR and BR(S) rationalised the provision of ringed-arm starter signals from non-passenger (goods and/or ECS) lines into section, getting rid of them from many locations where they had been provided by the pre-grouping companies (the SER particularly seems to have been mad-keen on them). Some did remain, where the move from the non-passenger line was a frequent one, and/or not simple for the signalman to hand-signal from his 'box. There was a very long-surviving LBSCR at Norwood Junction, which didn't disappear until the late-1970s or early-1980s.

 

My gut feeling is that unless you envisage a very heavy goods or ECS traffic from the loop, moves in and out of it would be controlled by shunting signals or directly be the signalman.

 

That having been said, ringed-arm signals do add a note of interest to a layout, and Rule 1 always applies.

[Nick C]

Given that you've got it electrified and rebuilt in the 30s with an art deco box, I'm wondering if the SR would have resignalled it at the same time, with colour lights?

[Nearholmer]

Noooooo!!

 

Sorry. The idea was just too painful.

 

Added to which, the area in which Geep’s excellent layout is set was still semaphore until quite recently.

 

The SR certainly didn’t waste money on resignalling non-main lines.

 

Bognor Regis was a clear example of a moderne box controlling semaphores in Geep's area - lovely photos here http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Bognor/index.htm

 

You can see a ringed arm goods starter in this photo of Westerham. The site I stole it from calls it a shunting signal, but it isn’t, it gives authority to proceed into section.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Geep7]

8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Noooooo!!

 

Sorry. The idea was just too painful.

 

Added to which, the area in which Geep’s excellent layout is set was still semaphore until quite recently.

 

The SR certainly didn’t waste money on resignalling non-main lines.

 

You can see a ringed arm goods starter in this photo of Westerham. The site I stole it from calls it a shunting signal, but it isn’t, it gives authority to proceed into section.

 

That's exactly the sort of signal I'm thinking for the exit from the goods loop. Thanks.

[Geep7]

16 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Given that you've got it electrified and rebuilt in the 30s with an art deco box, I'm wondering if the SR would have resignalled it at the same time, with colour lights?

 

Thanks, and this was a thought at one point, but as Nearholmer has mentioned, the Coastway West route through Chichester was semaphore until fairly recently. Indeed, the Bognor and Littlehampton branches still have them.

 

I'm pushing it a bit with having electric point motors, but I can't find definite proof when exactly they were fitted, so can just about justify them, but I can't really do the same with the signals.

[Nearholmer]

I'm thinking that your signals are upper quadrant, and trying to find a picture of a ringed-arm UQ, and failing. I'm sure there were some, but can't remember where.

 

Its a pity you can't include the home signals, because that would give an excuse for calling-on arms in a case like yours ........... you could have homes and either distant arms (old practice) or calling-on arms (newer practice) for the platforms, and a ringed-arm signal giving entry to the loop, all of which would look very fancy.

[Geep7]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm thinking that your signals are upper quadrant, and trying to find a picture of a ringed-arm UQ, and failing. I'm sure there were some, but can't remember where.

 

Its a pity you can't include the home signals, because that would give an excuse for calling-on arms in a case like yours ........... you could have homes and either distant arms (old practice) or calling-on arms (newer practice) for the platforms, and a ringed-arm signal giving entry to the loop, all of which would look very fancy.

Now that would be nice. I would imagine that they would be the other side of the road bridge, otherwise they would be sighted rather well. I could, as I just have about enough space, model them, we would just be looking at them from behind.

[Nearholmer]

Beddington Lane http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/beddington_lane/index1.shtml a very nice set of signals including, if you scroll down, ringed-arm upper-quadrants.

 

The West Croydon to Wimbledon line was an working museum from a signalling viewpoint, proving that electrification and antique signals are happy bed-fellows.

 

Even bits of the back of signals, viewed over he road-bridge would add interest, and suggest that the line is actually arriving from somewhere. The issue might be that any calling-on arms would usually be sited close to drivers' eye level, so might not be visible from the front of the layout.

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, Geep7 said:

 

Thanks, and this was a thought at one point, but as Nearholmer has mentioned, the Coastway West route through Chichester was semaphore until fairly recently. Indeed, the Bognor and Littlehampton branches still have them.

 

I'm pushing it a bit with having electric point motors, but I can't find definite proof when exactly they were fitted, so can just about justify them, but I can't really do the same with the signals.

True. Arundel had a new art deco box in '38 with semaphores. There's one calling on arm in the Pryor diagram, but no ringed arms - the other subsidiary signals are all discs.

[SR Chris]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

Given that you've got it electrified and rebuilt in the 30s with an art deco box, I'm wondering if the SR would have resignalled it at the same time, with colour lights?

 

Deal itself (despite rationalisation and replacement of the adjacent level crossing gates by barriers some years ago) remains fully semaphore signalled albeit with position light shunt signals from it's original art deco box. It's the lone semaphore survivor in East Kent.

[Nearholmer]

53 minutes ago, Nick C said:

There's one calling on arm in the Pryor diagram, but no ringed arms - the other subsidiary signals are all discs.

The thing about ringed-arm signals, certainly as used on SR, is that I’m not sure they are ‘subsidiary signals’. They are main signals, applicable to moves to/from lines that are not arranged for use by passenger trains (may lack facing point locking, or be worked under permissive block, or simply be sidings).

 

I believe that on SR the only difference between a ringed and no-ringed arm is that an ‘off’ on a ringed-arm signal cannot be accepted by a passenger train.

 

(I’m less sure what they meant elsewhere - certainly the GWR and LNWR/NLR used them differently from the SR constituents)

[Nick C]

41 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The thing about ringed-arm signals, certainly as used on SR, is that I’m not sure they are ‘subsidiary signals’. They are main signals, applicable to moves to/from lines that are not arranged for use by passenger trains (may lack facing point locking, or be worked under permissive block, or simply be sidings).

 

I believe that on SR the only difference between a ringed and no-ringed arm is that an ‘off’ on a ringed-arm signal cannot be accepted by a passenger train.

 

(I’m less sure what they meant elsewhere - certainly the GWR and LNWR/NLR used them differently from the SR constituents)

I've just looked, and I can't find any reference to ringed arms in my SR rule book (dated 1933). It states that subsidiary signals are short arms with a horizontal red and white stripes, or discs. It mentions calling on arms with a C, shunt ahead arms with an S, and warning signals with a W.

 

Shunt ahead signals specifically do not allow entry to the section ahead, other subsidiaries, including calling on and warning signals can. No subsidiaries can be used to signal a passenger train.

 

There's also mention of both three and four aspect colour light signals, and position light shunting signals.

[Nearholmer]

The 1933 Rule Book might not mention them, but they were very common at Grouping, and rare by the 1970s, declining over that period.

 

The calling-on etc arms that you mention were still quite widespread in the 1970s, and a ‘calling on’ signal very definitely can be accepted by a passenger train - that was their primary purpose, and the SR and BR(S) had many places where they were needed either for joining service up at junctions, or for allowing entry to occupied terminal roads (which the LBSCR used to signal using a “home over distant” combination.). I’m less sure about acceptance of W subsidiaries.

 

Aha ...... Wikipedia actually explains it quite well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_railway_signalling

Edited November 18, 2019 by Nearholmer