Woolwich Dockyard (working title)

[Kelly]

No real progress on the layout due to ally pally and I'll health sadly. I had hoped to have another go with templot getting the left hand cluster of points changed to a single slip, but have been too ill to give it the concentration it needs.

 

I did however get some items at ally pally that are relevant to the layout.

 

 

Those being an EM gauge B6 point kit and a length of EM gauge flexible track from C&L Finescale (I also got a length of people code 75 flexible track and the needed glue for the kit).

 

Hopefully over the next few weeks I'll get a chance to give it a try. I at least now have some track for testing of stock. I just need a controller now (I started this having nothing in the way of track or electronics).

 

Think I'll next put a simple test track together when I can get some suitable wood.

[Kelly]

Haven't had any real chance to think much about the layout plan since the last update.

 

However, unravelled has kindly offered to take some photos of the area sometime in the near future, which I'm very grateful for. That should prove useful.

 

I'm about 90% happy with how the plan looks really, just the point work on the left hand side to finalise (still not gotten around to trying again with a single slip in Templot). I need to finalise the width though, so I can look at ordering boards from Tim Horn. Atm they're looking at needing 3ftx2ft6" boards (3ftx2ft6" + 2ftx2ft6" + 3ftx2ft6" most likely) plus traverse/fiddle yard boards either end, which leads to the next consideration...

 

Initially I was going to go with cassettes for stock, but with a 4 car unit being about 4ft in length, I suspect that would be too unwieldy. So I next consider a traverser set up. This does double the needed width for the storage areas though in effect. Ideally I'd have that controlled by some kind of computer control to align it etc. A standard fiddle yard won't really suffice I think due to not wanting to build so many points! (keeping the number of points low is a bit of a priority with being new to track building), that and the length reductions associated with such a system.

 

I did have a wacky idea for a vertical traverser (as well as the horizontal movement) to connect with storage sidings underneath the baseboards (being made double depth). But I think this is getting too complex to be viable, I think I'd rather stick to the KISS method as best I can.

 

I did join MERG at the weekend when at the Alexandra Palace show, and am hoping to find suitable point/signal control options via there (waiting for MERG membership to be processed atm). Natalie is wanting an NX panel for the points/signals with routing. I'd be happy enough controlling by a tablet/laptop or a switch/mimic type panel (simpler likely than an NX panel, but Natalie is adamant about it being an NX panel). I've revised my thoughts about Raspberry Pi + SPROG + JMRI a bit, and will wait until I have access to read in more detail about the MERG CBUS system (another option being arduinos) and their DCC system too. As with all these sorts of things, i need to experiment a little, but that will wait a bit now for funds to allow progress to be made.

 

As I mentioned in my last post I have a EM B6 point kit to build, so that will be my next step I think. Hopefully I'll manage ok with it, but as with such things, until I attempt it I'll never know!

 

Until next time.

[Kelly]

I've not been able to give much thought to this plan the last week or so due to life getting in the way unfortunately. However, unravelled was kind enough to visit the area and take some photos, which have proved helpful and will provide many useful details when I come to the scenic side of things (line side equipment, signals, signs etc). He also provided some videos too, which again are useful for such details and the layout of the track.

 

With his photos in mind I've rejigged the templot plan a bit.

 

The right hand side of the layout was previously like this:

 

 

 

I've changed it to be more like unravelled's photos below:

 

 

 

As can be seen they go straighter than I originally had it and then diverge on a curve, just visible is the angerstein wharf junction. The tunnels/bridge will hide most of that bit, so it will be replaced with a traverser I'm thinking. Which will link up to the top bit to allow access to the hidden sector plate (in reality likely to be a pivoted flexitrack).

 

The plan is currently incomplete as I haven't yet put the dockyard junction or the single slip in place. It being changed to a straighter level will make doing that easier at least, but a job for another day.

 

The use of hidden sector plates and traversers will save a bit of time and money potentially with only points being needed for the visible sections in the revised plan.  It has gone from about 8 or 9 points plus one crossover to currently 3 points plus one crossover, with another 1 or two points and a single slip to be added, assuming I can 'crack' the single slip in templot that is! if not it'll require and additional 3 or 4 points. With point kits at nearly £50 each, reducing the number helps fund other areas potentially, although single slips and crossovers are about £80-100 each. But it will be worth it in the end.

 

I am wanting to make the line look a bit more like this photo unravelled provided:

 

 

If I do this however, the oil depot will look a bit odd on the other side of a cutting retaining wall! so would have to be on a separate level, operated separate by cassette. I could in theory design some kind of vertical traverser to connect it with the horizontal one, but that could well be getting too complicated. As there'll only ever be a 33 or 73 with some TTAs or at a different time if it were replaced with a milk depot or something similar a 70/71/74 perhaps, or even a C class or similar. For a short train a cassette would be viable compared to the 4-5 car trains for the main EMUs (2car for 2EPB/466, 3car for '3'SUB units pre-augmentation, 4car for 4SUBs/4EPBs/465, 5car for 376s). I think this will be a case of trial and error when I have the boards made up and can see how it might fit in, if at all.

 

Unravelled also provided some photos of Charlton Lane Crossing and the box and footbridge there:

 

 

An interesting feature at several points along the line is the underpasses:

 

 

Unfortunately I don't think these will be easy to model (especially if I go for the look as the cutting).

 

A focal point will be the chimney, which again unravelled has provided some excellent photos of (he even measured the bricks, etc to enable scaling, though I don't think scaling it to 4mm will be viable):

 

 

The high rises are a distinctive feature of the area too. There is also a distinctive substation building in the Charlton area, unfortunately unravelled's dvd had problems when trying to access some of the files, so he is going to resend those, I suspect photos of the substation and that area of the junction are in those photos. He has given me permission to share the photos he took, so i'll likely upload them to an album or to my flickr.

 

Thanks for reading this rather long winded update. The research and planning may be still on going (it never really stops!), but the light is at the end of the tunnel. I reckon I'll soon be able to order boards. One advantage to the changes I've made is it has narrowed the requirements from 2ftx2ft6" to 2ft wide, which puts it within a 'standard' board size from Tim Horn IIRC. The changes have also reduced the length from about 14-15ft to just shy of 11ft, not including traversers, which will add another 4-5ft of length.

 

The traverser length is giving my thoughts of curved end boards to bring the storage areas to a different angle, either 90 degrees to the main scenic areas or 180 degrees. I'm considering a 'hockey stick' traverser to save space as a result. Curved boards would probably need about 4-5ft anyway though to have achievable curves though as they'd be off scene, they could be tighter perhaps. A thought for another day though really that.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Excellent stuff. The thought going into the planning stage is rather impressive and I should take note and learn from that. Regarding width, I had considered 2'6" but am glad to have reduced that to 2'. It does make life easier in the construction phase, certainly.

[Kelly]

Excellent stuff. The thought going into the planning stage is rather impressive and I should take note and learn from that. Regarding width, I had considered 2'6" but am glad to have reduced that to 2'. It does make life easier in the construction phase, certainly.

Thanks.

 

I'm purposely putting more effort to the planning due to the nature of what it needs to accomplish really.

 

As it is my first layout and is intended to be modular and multi era, thought needs to be taken to allow that to be possible. If the modules all align at the same point on the boards then I will hopefully be able to take a section out and still run it. Which would be required for home use really, with 2 car units mostly.

 

The building of the boards will largely be the same regardless of the width or length to some extent as they'll be from Tim Horn's range of laser cut boards. They'll also align well due to his design from what I've seen, allowing extra lengths /modules to be done over time knowing they'll line up.

 

I need to measure the car really at some point so I know absolute maximum sizes for each module. Though being a mondeo estate it'll swallow a *lot*.

 

6" width doesn't seem a lot, but does make a difference in terms of storing it and reaching areas.

 

I think the traverser decks could possibly be made as 2 2ftx2ft boards with a suitable framing for runners and allowing them to join together to form a 4ftx2ft traverser as needed, either one end or both, or a single 2ft each end for shorter running, making storage easier.

 

Being able to change out features and such like will keep the project interesting too hopefully as there'll always be something that can be made for others, be it a different crossing box, bridge or tunnel. Though can't go back beyond around 1925 due to the 3Rd rail ;-) I don't think removal 3Rd rail would work ;-)

[unravelled]

One of the missing pictures, at Charlton, suggests one of my many silly ideas.

 

 

Over Easter weekend, there were a  lot of works going on. and one of the routes was closed to traffic. To simplify the fiddle yard/cassette requirements, something like this could be represented in the model, with a dressing of appropriate era stock working under the bridge.

 

Also a streetside picture of Charlton substation. I'll get some from the platform side later.

 

 

Dave

[Kelly]

Thanks for those Dave. Very useful shots of the substation. It reminds me of the one that I remember from the many times I used Barnehurst station, though I think they demolished the original there a couple of years ago or so now and replaced it with a smaller one.

 

The red stop track signs are an interesting feature I noticed on your videos, and could operating interest to the layout with a possession in progress and slower than usual trains, etc. All these details are quite helpful and interesting.

[Kelly]

Not done a great deal last couple of days, though did make a few tweaks with Natalie's input on the plan. It still needs a bit more work though and a slip adding on the left side. I'm still a bit unsure about the oil depot, adding the point makes it a bit easier to access from the fiddle yard at least and saves on a complicated extra cassette set up. Slowly getting there in terms of finalising the plans, I need to tweak the oil depot a little more still, and figure out that slip for the left hand side. I'm planning to use a set up to access the hidden sidings as featured in the recent Railway Modeller as described by Peter Osbourne, that being a section of flexible track, that is pivoted by wire-in-tube or similar. Though how durable that might be will be a matter of experimentation, if that fails then a small sector plate each end will be used. I may look at keeping the option to have more than 3 sidings available at a later date for when (if) it ever gets invited to an exhibition.

 

 

Also this arrived today:

 

 

So I'll have a look through it properly and sort out the forum login etc. I am likely to make use of the MERG canbus set up, for points/signals/routing and train detection.

 

We're off to the Electric Train Museum tomorrow for their open day, which should give a good opportunity to get some good photos of the various units there.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Kelly

[Kelly]

So no real updates again in terms of the plan. But I did get to the Electric Railway Museum's open day today. The weather was good in the morning so got to get some decent enough photos - however, I borrowed my other half's 700D camera for the day and had the ISO setting wrong for some of the photos so they came out too dark, do'h! -. The photos from today's visit are here:

 

 

I previously took photos a few years ago, which are located here:

 

 

Whilst there I managed to pick up this lot:

 

For £6! that being 30 magazines (including some 2016 issues, and the Hornby Handbook 2016, Railway Modeller Annual 2016 and Hornby Magazine Yearbook No.8) working out at 10p each! 2 Traction DVDs (50p each) and a couple of books. I also picked up 3 large mugs which Richard had been wanting for at his new house (I prefer to drink tea from 3/4pt or 1pt mugs) for £3. So that was a result really. Quite a lot of interesting articles and information in that lot.

 

Next weekend will see a visit to the Scalefour North show in Wakefield, which I'm looking forward to.

[mudmagnet]

Looks like an interesting Kelly.

Will follow with interest.

 

Have you made a start on the point kit yet? I've built a few recently and pleased with the results.

[Kelly]

Looks like an interesting Kelly.

Will follow with interest.

 

Have you made a start on the point kit yet? I've built a few recently and pleased with the results.

Thanks :-)

 

No, not made a start yet. Have had a rethink today after going to the scalefour north show in Wakefield and thinking I'm going to redo the plans to p4 rather than em.

 

Part of the reasoning being that I'm going to have to remoter and change the wheels anyway, so might as well go that extra 0.63mm. Was impressed by the help and advice from the scalefour society I received today too.

 

Have had a word with c&l today and they'll swap the gauge and template so I don't have to get a whole new kit. Won't collect that till expoem most likely though.

[Mark Forrest]

If you are going down the P4 route, the Exactoscale turnout kits are excellent, not cheap though. The chairs from those are available separately from C&L in my opinion it is worthwhile using them in place of the normal C&L chairs.

[Kelly]

If you are going down the P4 route, the Exactoscale turnout kits are excellent, not cheap though. The chairs from those are available separately from C&L in my opinion it is worthwhile using them in place of the normal C&L chairs.

I did have a look at a couple when at scalefour north today. Will give them consideration when I do another kit after the first, will start with the c&l B6 and go from there.

[Kelly]

No real further updates alas. Other than that is the decision to switch from EM to P4 after being inspired at Scalefour North last weekend. Having spoken with C&L it seems I can swap the parts I need for P4 for the point kit (template and track gauge). I've edited the Templot plan to be redrawn to P4. I still need to rework the single slip on the left and aim to redraw the crossover to try to make it not on a transition curve to flatten it a bit more. I intend when funds allow to join the Scalefour society at a future show.

 

However, that will have to wait, as this evening at slimming world I managed to fall over and have hurt my right wrist (I'm right handed), hopefully nothing broken.

 

In terms of electrics/DCC there is a Warwickshire/North Oxfordshire MERG area group meeting I'm attending with Natalie on Saturday, which should prove informative. This will be the first MERG event I'll have been to since joining in March.

[Guest]

Hope the wrist is ok, Kelly. I'm right-handed and it would appear my left hand is not connected to my brain. Daughter is ambidextrous which I always find a little spooky!

[mightbe]

Having spoken with C&L it seems I can swap the parts I need for P4 for the point kit (template and track gauge). 

 

Don't forget about exchanging the common crossing (frog) too. 

 

I've recently started doing P4 (from 00-SF), and am 3/4 of the way through my first P4 turnout (ply and functional chairs). Building from scratch isn't so hard--I've never bought/built a kit but the Exactoscale ones must be a breeze! (if pricy).

 

Quentin

[Kelly]

Hope the wrist is ok, Kelly. I'm right-handed and it would appear my left hand is not connected to my brain. Daughter is ambidextrous which I always find a little spooky!

 

It is rather sore this morning, but have most of the movement back in it. So I think I've hopefully gotten lucky in terms of avoiding breakage.

 

I broke the same wrist when I was 9, and whilst everyone left handed got a whack with the ruler by the English teacher if they used said left hand, I was forced to use my left hand due to the plaster cast on the right. This I recall didn't endear me towards said teacher... thus, I've remained at least a bit ambidextrous as a result and can write with either hands if I have to.

 

Don't forget about exchanging the common crossing (frog) too. 

 

I've recently started doing P4 (from 00-SF), and am 3/4 of the way through my first P4 turnout (ply and functional chairs). Building from scratch isn't so hard--I've never bought/built a kit but the Exactoscale ones must be a breeze! (if pricy).

 

Quentin

 

Will try to remember to mention to that to them, need to drop C&L an email before Bracknell to make sure they have the bits there ready for me to collect/exchange. May be easier to just exchange the entire thing mind.

[Huw Griffiths]

In terms of electrics/DCC there is a Warwickshire/North Oxfordshire MERG area group meeting I'm attending with Natalie on Saturday, which should prove informative. This will be the first MERG event I'll have been to since joining in March.

 

I suspect it might prove informative in more ways than one.

 

I've never been a member of MERG (or any of the other clubs and societies that appear at shows), so I don't know what their meetings are like. However, apart from any stuff that gets discussed (technical or otherwise), this will probably be your first chance to find out what MERG (and the area group) are actually like.

 

I have no wish to undermine them in any way - and no wish for any confidences to be breached - but I hope it all goes well. I also hope you're able to enjoy it.

 

 

I managed to fall over and have hurt my right wrist (I'm right handed), hopefully nothing broken.

 

Ouch! I also hope nothing's broken - but I'm certain you won't take any chances.

 

 

Hope the wrist is ok, Kelly. I'm right-handed and it would appear my left hand is not connected to my brain. Daughter is ambidextrous which I always find a little spooky!

 

It is rather sore this morning, but have most of the movement back in it. So I think I've hopefully gotten lucky in terms of avoiding breakage.

 

I broke the same wrist when I was 9, and whilst everyone left handed got a whack with the ruler by the English teacher if they used said left hand, I was forced to use my left hand due to the plaster cast on the right. This I recall didn't endear me towards said teacher... thus, I've remained at least a bit ambidextrous as a result and can write with either hands if I have to.

 

Nothing sinister, then - even if one of your former teachers seems to think otherwise.

 

To be honest, though, this malarkey of using violence to force left-handers to write with our wrong right hands all sounds a bit Stone Age. I can certainly believe that it went on, though - my mother (who, like a lot of the family, is left-handed) came under a lot of pressure to switch hands when she was in primary school - and my maternal grandmother was forced to switch hands.

 

I also had to switch hands, when I was in primary school - even though I've got only myself to blame. I'd seen people using staplers to fix things together - and, rather stupidly, tried using one when I had a go at card modelling - I managed to staple my left thumb. The next day in school, we were being taught joined-up handwriting (well, that was the theory) - with my left thumb bandaged up, I had no choice but to use my right hand.

 

A few days later, my thumb had healed up - and I picked up a pencil in my left hand - only to get told: "You can write with your right hand, Huw - carry on." Unfortunately, I did as "suggested" - the biggest mistake I've ever made in my life.

 

 

I know what you mean about learning to use both hands, to some extent - this has certainly been the case when it came to things like soldering. Saying that, dexterity doesn't seem to be one of my strong points ...

 

 

Regards,

 

Huw.

[Kelly]

I suspect it might prove informative in more ways than one.

 

I've never been a member of MERG (or any of the other clubs and societies that appear at shows), so I don't know what their meetings are like. However, apart from any stuff that gets discussed (technical or otherwise), this will probably be your first chance to find out what MERG (and the area group) are actually like.

 

I have no wish to undermine them in any way - and no wish for any confidences to be breached - but I hope it all goes well. I also hope you're able to enjoy it.

 

 

Indeed it did. It reinforced my opinion that MERG's CBUS/DCC solution is the way forward. Natalie being left handed has caused a bit of debate on which is the best system handset wise, today gave her the opportunity to try the MERG CANCAB (their DCC handset), which proved suitable for her. So that answered that question. Also had chance to give soldering on one of the kits a try, which helped as its been many years since I attempted such.

 

So a very worthwhile visit. Natalie also took the opportunity to browse some of the archive of magazines/books the LWMRS have at their clubrooms (where the group meeting was held).

 

Everyone there was helpful and friendly, so hopefully we'll go again end of June for the next one. We'd considered joining the LWMRS in the past, though it proved unsuited for logistical and economical reasons sadly. However, a member of Coventry's MRS was there, so I had a chance to have a chat about the club and will look to go along to a running night of theirs next month hopefully.

 

As for the school stuff, this was back in the 80s/90s when I was at primary school in SE London. I just never really got on with the teachers there in general.

[Kelly]

Injuring my wrist has pretty much curtailed much planning or work on this project atm sadly. Whilst the wrist is mostly fine (nothing broken), it is aching too much trying to use a mouse (GP thinks a sprain/soft tissue damage etc).

 

However, have picked up today a B6 P4 point kit from C&L (swapped for the EM one I got at Ally Pally) and a length of P4 flexible track.

 

Am planning to rework the plan in templot when my wrist is able to cope with extended periods of mouse use. Then end of May/early June I might order the first boards... funds permitting of course (as always sadly).

[Kelly]

No real updates as yet for a number of reasons. But I have since joined the Scalefour Society, and will hopefully be getting the first of the baseboards from Tim Horn next week at DEMU showcase.

 

Still need to sit down with Templot and redraw the plans to their final design, but what with injuring my wrist a few weeks back and general health issues meaning I've just been too exhausted to concentrate most of the time.

[Kelly]

So, had a chance to have a play with Templot again. Have come up with the following revised plan.

 

First the original:

 

 

Then the revised:

 

 

It is fairly similar to the previous plan aside from:

 

• A single slip added on the left side
• Straightened out
• Crossover straight rather than on a transition curve

The reason for changing it to a straighter plan, is for one of modularness (is that a word?). Whilst it looked nice having a sweeping curved plan, if I wanted to have different modules, etc then it'd be a lot harder to get them to line up properly I'm thinking.

 

The crossover changes are to make it easier for me to build!

 

Any thoughts and suggestions as always welcome.

[Guest]

I absolutely understand the reasoning behind the "straightness". If modular connectivity is important, then this makes total sense. The gentle sweeping curves of the original did provide aesthetic appeal though. It really is a head v. heart thing, isn't it?

[Kelly]

I absolutely understand the reasoning behind the "straightness". If modular connectivity is important, then this makes total sense. The gentle sweeping curves of the original did provide aesthetic appeal though. It really is a head v. heart thing, isn't it?

 

Indeed. The gentle sweeping curves did look good, but would sadly be counter to plans for modular boards that can be swapped around.

 

Head has won on this occasion though really. I think I'm 99% happy with the revised plan, and hopefully will collect the first 3ftx2ft board from Tim Horn at the weekend (DEMU Showcase) and make a start from there.

[Southernman46]

Thanks for those Dave. Very useful shots of the substation. It reminds me of the one that I remember from the many times I used Barnehurst station, though I think they demolished the original there a couple of years ago or so now and replaced it with a smaller one.

 

The red stop track signs are an interesting feature I noticed on your videos, and could operating interest to the layout with a possession in progress and slower than usual trains, etc. All these details are quite helpful and interesting.

The one at Barnehurst was one of the original 1925 rotary convertor substations but was relegated to just a Track Paralleling hut (4 DC circuit breakers only - no rectifier equipment) under the Change of Frequency scheme in the early 1954. Alternative "bungalow" substations were built at Slade Green and Bexleyheath to compensate. It will now (probably) be a substation again (albeit with new modular building) under the "High Power" Networker / Electrostar 10-12 car scheme (I am a bit out-of-date on Kent Electrification these days since heading west............)

 

As for Charlton substation - it was one of the Cathedral type subs that originally had a rail connection through the large roller shutter door. The inset rails can still be seen in the sub floor and there was about 30' of track still existent outside back in the early 90's.

 

Was working at the sub one day and happened to notice one of the original green totem signs for Charlton station lying on the ground between the original station trestle platform and the sub compound boundary fence (it must have been there for 20+ years at the time), needless to say a bit of judicious fishing with some wire and it went to a better home........................

 

The Angerstein branch was electrified on the SR's 750v dc overhead system (from the overbridge down to the wharf reception lines) so you have the perfect excuse for a Class 71 .................

Edited June 1, 2016 by Southernman46