RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted June 2, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 2, 2016 Thanks Stephen. Another quick question. I can understand the comment about having power feeds to each section of track and not relying on the etched fishplates, but what do people tend to do where insulated joints are required? Presumably there is some form of plastic fishplate that ensures a gap remains? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2016 Thanks Stephen. Another quick question. I can understand the comment about having power feeds to each section of track and not relying on the etched fishplates, but what do people tend to do where insulated joints are required? Presumably there is some form of plastic fishplate that ensures a gap remains? Rich Peco do make an insulated track joiner I hesitate to call it a fishplate). C&L do (or Did) some plastic fishplates but these are decorative. Anything you use must allow for expansion. A simple gap will suffice if the temperatures are fairly stable but a dab of araldite with or without a scrap of paper or tissue will suffice just something to prevent the rail ends making contact. You can the fix decorative fishplates to one side leaving the other side free expand or contract. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Peco do make an insulated track joiner I hesitate to call it a fishplate). C&L do (or Did) some plastic fishplates but these are decorative. Anything you use must allow for expansion. A simple gap will suffice if the temperatures are fairly stable but a dab of araldite with or without a scrap of paper or tissue will suffice just something to prevent the rail ends making contact. You can the fix decorative fishplates to one side leaving the other side free expand or contract. Don Hi again, Not quite correct I'm afraid. C&L do two types of functional insulated fishplate. The old C&L and the Exactoscale. You'll probably need both as you will see. First, the Exactoscale version: This is in fact a proper fishplate pair but you have to plan ahead to use them as intended since they have to be slid onto the rail, no glue required. They don't have much structural strength so don't rely on them for that. In the areas you are likely to use them, they should normally have enough give to cope with any expansion issues in normal circumstances. C&L type: These have to be applied in two parts, so you can use them as an afterthought, or just use the Exactoscale ones split into two parts. If you have to solder anywhere near any of them, then best to fit afterwards. Expansion: The rail lengths where you are likely to use them (at the tail of the vee and on the common crossing) are so short I wouldn't worry about expansion. If you use them on metre lengths then just leave a decent gap and use cosmetically as suggested. This is more likely to be a problem where the track is exposed to direct sunlight. The same goes for the etched ones too. Don't forget that wherever you place any fishplates the chairs must have their keys facing away from them in both directions, otherwise you won't get them on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted June 3, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2016 Don/Stephen, Thanks to both of you for the answer - I'm a bit clearer on things now. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hi again, Not quite correct I'm afraid. C&L do two types of functional insulated fishplate. The old C&L and the Exactoscale. You'll probably need both as you will see. First, the Exactoscale version: This is in fact a proper fishplate pair but you have to plan ahead to use them as intended since they have to be slid onto the rail, no glue required. They don't have much structural strength so don't rely on them for that. In the areas you are likely to use them, they should normally have enough give to cope with any expansion issues in normal circumstances. C&L type: These have to be applied in two parts, so you can use them as an afterthought, or just use the Exactoscale ones split into two parts. If you have to solder anywhere near any of them, then best to fit afterwards. Expansion: The rail lengths where you are likely to use them (at the tail of the vee and on the common crossing) are so short I wouldn't worry about expansion. If you use them on metre lengths then just leave a decent gap and use cosmetically as suggested. This is more likely to be a problem where the track is exposed to direct sunlight. The same goes for the etched ones too. Don't forget that wherever you place any fishplates the chairs must have their keys facing away from them in both directions, otherwise you won't get them on. Stephen I did not consider them functional as I would not expect it to hold rail in line. Specifically if you lay flexi track and then expect it to hold the ends together they will not do so. THe track needs to fixed so that the two ends will stay in line. The fishplates are then decorative. I presume you call then functional because they will prevent the ends of the rail touching. Within the turnout the rail lengths will be short but a length of rail held by the plastic chairs can at an exhibition with the sun streaming through a large window expand enough to close up a gap if the rail expands and closes a gap at the crossing end it can be a cause of shorts. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Don I use the Exactoscale fishplates in 4 mm scale (which are far more fragile than 7 mm ones) as functional rail joiners.. They hold the rail in line long enough for the solvent to set between chair and timbers, which then take over the job of holding the rail in place. Yes they are fragile but strong enough once the chairs take over. As a precaution pre-curve the rail if necessary. I have successfully used them on both 4 & 7 layouts as both rail joiners and to isolate sections, for example where the closer rail attaches to the common crossing The metal fishplates are also useful for example on slips where I use them as a hinge between the switch rail and centre section, soldering the half which attaches to the centre section to it and letting the switch blade swivel in the other half Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted June 7, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2016 Evening all, Just a quick update for those who have been really kind to give me help and advice on this thread. Debs advised that her 0-MF gauges were back in stock, and thanks to her very prompt action, they arrived with the Postie this morning. C&L have emailed to say the order of track, sleepers, fishplates and chairs (all 2,345 different varieties - well it felt that many when ordering!) has been dispatched and should arrive tomorrow, so hopefully Thursday or Friday, Marsh Lane Depot should see its first track laid. I'm starting easy with just the straights within the shed building and yard, but have acquired the components for a turnout too. After looking at various examples on here, I've decided to have a bash go at making my own 'fees' but have gone for the C&L switch blades. I thought a) they set everything up to run through the turnout and b) i've then got a clear example to use for making my own next time! I took onboard all the advice and suggestions made by the far more knowledgeable people on here - although i got a little stumped with fishplates ... plastic or brass? I've gone for the plastic ones to start with as they won't be used for power conductivity - we'll see how they work. As i've said the first part of the track will be in the shed building, all of which (except the pits) is going to be covered in DAS clay to allow me to resemble it being set in brickwork (or paviours as I'm told they are called) so most will be covered up, but once in the shed yard, errors and the like will be visible, so i'm hoping it will all look ok. I am proposing to deal with the trackwork build on this thread, so please do check in and if you see me making any mistakes or know of a better way of doing things, then please chip in ... come to that ... feel free to chip in about anything anyway! Hopefully this will work. One query - somebody mentioned that the keys on track, always face the direction of travel (or was it the other way?) but what would be the preference on shed trackwork where vehicles can move both ways? The layout is NE 1960s/1980s set if that makes any difference. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted June 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2016 One query - somebody mentioned that the keys on track, always face the direction of travel (or was it the other way?) but what would be the preference on shed trackwork where vehicles can move both ways? The layout is NE 1960s/1980s set if that makes any difference. Hi Rich, First, what do you mean by "facing"? Keys are driven (hammered) into the chair in one direction, meaning that the thick end remains protruding in the opposite direction. The rules from railway permanent way staff all refer to the direction in which the keys are driven. Modellers sometimes refer to them the other way. In sidings, yards engine sheds, etc. keys are usually driven towards he nearest rail joint. But you will find masses of evidence contradicting this as loose keys have been replaced over the years. Here's some stuff I have posted on RMweb several times -- no harm in posting it again: ___________ It is important to prevent a rail creeping through the chairs, because it causes the essential expansion gap at the rail joint to close up. There is then a risk that the rail will buckle when it expands in hot weather. The general creep of rails is in the same direction as the direction of traffic. On double track the tapered chair keys are therefore driven into the chairs in this direction, and any rail creep will tend to tighten them in the chairs. Note that this means the direction in which the keys are driven (hammered) into the chair. The result is that the thick end of the key remains protruding from the chair pointing in the opposite direction. The reason the rails move in the direction of travel is because of the way the rails flex under load and get pushed forward by the wheels. It is similar to what happens when rolling pastry -- the whole mass moves forward on the board in the direction in which it is being rolled. However, there are sometimes situations where rails are found to move backwards -- for example on the inside rail of sharp curves and on steep rising gradients. If a situation is found where the keys frequently work loose, some or all of them will be turned round and driven in the opposite direction. On single lines or where traffic is bi-directional, the usual rule of thumb is to drive the keys "towards the joint, towards the station, towards the river". That means on level track between stations the keys are driven into the chairs towards the nearer of the two rail joints in each rail length. Approaching a station, where trains are braking or accelerating, most keys are driven towards the station. On steep gradients, most keys are driven downhill. But on any track, on the chairs immediately adjacent to a fishplate at a rail joint, the keys are driven in towards the fishplate, because it is physically impossible to fit them the other way. Just to repeat, the thick end of the key remains protruding from the chair in the opposite direction to the direction in which the key is driven into it -- this can lead to confusion in describing the hand of model chairs with moulded keys. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted June 7, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2016 Martin, As ever - thank you! Your knowledge hints and tips are gratefully received. I'll post as I go along and am open to constructive criticism if it helps me to improve things. I've printed your comments off and will refer to them while laying/building track! Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted October 20, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 Evening all, Belatedly, i've finally got started on my point work! As those who remember the above discussion will remember, its the first time i've built pointwork so something of a learning curve! However, i've got a bit stuck with a couple of queries over rail chairs etc, that i've described on my main thread (Post 261) - i'd appreciate any help with the answers if anyone can? Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Rich In 7 mm scale you are quite limited it what is available in special chairs for switches and crossings, a guide (s) that may be useful is on the C&L website for Exactoscale 4 mm chairs http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=36 http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/RH%20Switches.pdf If you look at the switch chairs and common crossing instructions it clearly shows the differing chair styles There is a chap on Shapeways selling 7 mm chairs, mainly LNER. The check rail chairs look very good and the more you buy the cheaper the unit cost, also there are common crossing chairs etc Using either C&L or Exactoscale chairs its a bit of cut and shut, certainly for the !PL & 2PL positions splicing a standard and a slide chair makes passable parts and for the bridge chairs in a common crossing careful splicing of standard chairs again makes passable alternatives. The 3,4 & 5 Pl chairs positions in the switch chair range have to be scratch built. Have a look at the C&L Exactoscale link, may explain the chairs a bit better. Photos and drawings of chairs also on Templot Club Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted October 22, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2016 Thanks Hayfield, Much appreciated. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Rich Off the Rails is the company/designer A selection of turnout chairs http://www.shapeways.com/product/QC6X3T482/lner-chairs-sample-selection-2?optionId=40637804 A second collection http://www.shapeways.com/product/6TGT6QCDV/lner-chairs-sample-selection-1?optionId=21072512 A good selection of GWR slab & bracket (nose) chairs, might be worth a few clubbing together and sharing http://www.shapeways.com/product/RFYV68HFF/gwr-1in7-bc-quot-slab-bracket-quot-chair-36?optionId=40552082 http://www.shapeways.com/product/B55KMD44B/gwr-1in7-bc-quot-slab-bracket-quot-chair-6?optionId=40348652 Common crossing chairs http://www.shapeways.com/product/HGR34RQ7K/1-in-6-common-crossing-chairs?optionId=42401893 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibthorpe Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Thanks to Rich for starting this thread. As a returning modeller after a long gap it's been very helpful getting my background knowledge up to speed and I'm about to embark on test build myself. I'm doing 7mm LSWR so does any of the knowledgeable member know if anyone does LSWR pattern chairs i.e. Two bolts outside, one bolt inside. I've drawn a blank so far. Fingers crossed! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted December 15, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 15, 2016 Thanks to Rich for starting this thread. As a returning modeller after a long gap it's been very helpful getting my background knowledge up to speed and I'm about to embark on test build myself. I'm doing 7mm LSWR so does any of the knowledgeable member know if anyone does LSWR pattern chairs i.e. Two bolts outside, one bolt inside. I've drawn a blank so far. Fingers crossed! Paul Hi Paul, Im afraid I cannot help on the LSWR pattern chairs - although I'm sure somebody will chip in. Welcome back to modelling, do start a thread and keep us up to date with your progress! Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 Hi Paul, Im afraid I cannot help on the LSWR pattern chairs - although I'm sure somebody will chip in. Welcome back to modelling, do start a thread and keep us up to date with your progress! Rich Exactoscale do them in 4mm scale but not unfortunately in 7mm scale. 3D printed versions may become available but may prove an expensive option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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